European Court of Justice: EU employers must track working time in detail
1–10 of 72 posts
Re: European Court of Justice: EU employers must track working time in detail
#2I suspect it's only a fraction of employees that work more than they're supposed to, but as they're workaholics that work a lot more, they move the mean and it has a big positive impact for employers.
If this is true, this ruling is bound to have an impact on EU economic activity. And I don't see how it can be good, given that nobody's thinking that EU labor is too cheap. If it's applied at face value, it can only reduce worked hours at current costs, or have employers pay more for current output. Definitely can't increase EU labor competivity.
Re: European Court of Justice: EU employers must track working time in detail
#3I guess it's good for workers: No one will work over what he is suppose to work and also will stop answering emails/slack/etc after work hours and/or in the weekends.
Employers have this stupid notion that the workers are slacking but in office setting IMO this would backfire by malicious compliance from the workers.
Also, good job Spanish Trade Union in making things worse for everyone in EU.
Re: European Court of Justice: EU employers must track working time in detail
#4I suspect it's only a fraction of employees that work more than they're supposed to, but as they're workaholics that work a lot more, they move the mean and it has a big positive impact for employers. If this is true, this ruling is bound to have an impact on EU economic activity. And I don't see how it can be good, given that nobody's thinking that EU labor is too cheap. If it's applied at face value, it can only re…
There’s more to life than productivity. The quality of life for EU citizens is high and getting higher.
Re: European Court of Justice: EU employers must track working time in detail
#5I suspect it's only a fraction of employees that work more than they're supposed to, but as they're workaholics that work a lot more, they move the mean and it has a big positive impact for employers. If this is true, this ruling is bound to have an impact on EU economic activity. And I don't see how it can be good, given that nobody's thinking that EU labor is too cheap. If it's applied at face value, it can only re…
There’s more to life than productivity. The quality of life for EU citizens is high and getting higher.
> The quality of life for EU citizens is high and getting higher.
But not thanks to this court ruling. The only thing that will bring employers and employees is more bureaucracy.
Employees which let themselves get exploited before, will let themselves get exploited with precise time tracking as well. After all, who's going to check whether you actually tracked the time you spent working after hours – answering e-mails, calling back a client, or fixing bugs in your code?
Re: European Court of Justice: EU employers must track working time in detail
#6Earlier quoted context omitted.
There’s more to life than productivity. The quality of life for EU citizens is high and getting higher.
> The quality of life for EU citizens is high and getting higher. But not thanks to this court ruling. The only thing that will bring employers and employees is more bureaucracy. Employees which let themselves get exploited before, will let themselves get exploited with precise time tracking as well. After all, who's going to check whether you actually tracked the time you spent working after hours – answering e-mail…
Seems very reasonable to me, don't know why you call this bureaucracy:
"The Court holds that, in the absence of a system enabling the duration of time worked each day by each worker to be measured, it is not possible to determine, objectively and reliably, either the number of hours worked and when that work was done, or the number of hours of overtime worked [...]"
ALL places I have worked at have this in some way. Maybe not every day and maybe not always 100% correct but how else will they bill projects internally???
Re: European Court of Justice: EU employers must track working time in detail
#7> A German confederation of employers said that the ruling was tantamount to demanding a return to workers punching in and punching out on arrival and departure, calling this impractical given modern working practices, smartphones, home offices and the like.
Not really in agreement with the ruling but that's a dumb argument. Tons of tech contractors bill by the hour where accurately tracking time is a financial requirement.
Re: European Court of Justice: EU employers must track working time in detail
#8Earlier quoted context omitted.
> The quality of life for EU citizens is high and getting higher. But not thanks to this court ruling. The only thing that will bring employers and employees is more bureaucracy. Employees which let themselves get exploited before, will let themselves get exploited with precise time tracking as well. After all, who's going to check whether you actually tracked the time you spent working after hours – answering e-mail…
Seems very reasonable to me, don't know why you call this bureaucracy: "The Court holds that, in the absence of a system enabling the duration of time worked each day by each worker to be measured, it is not possible to determine, objectively and reliably, either the number of hours worked and when that work was done, or the number of hours of overtime worked [...]" ALL places I have worked at have this in some way.…
For project budget and billing purposes, it is sufficient to track the number of hours each day. This court decision, however, would require to also track the start and end time, as well as the durations of all breaks. That's because there are laws regulating how much break time you have to take each day (dependend on how many hours you work) and also how much time has to pass between two work days. If you're working from home, you'd have to track every little interruption in which you walk the dog, take your child to kindergarten, etc., otherwise your start and end time won't fit your billed hours.
Of course, nobody will bother with such tedious timekeeping, and will instead just enter plausible but made up values for start and end times, rendering this court decision useless.
Re: European Court of Justice: EU employers must track working time in detail
#9I suspect it's only a fraction of employees that work more than they're supposed to, but as they're workaholics that work a lot more, they move the mean and it has a big positive impact for employers. If this is true, this ruling is bound to have an impact on EU economic activity. And I don't see how it can be good, given that nobody's thinking that EU labor is too cheap. If it's applied at face value, it can only re…
This is about labor rights. If you're paid for 40h your employer should not be able to press you to do more without compensation. Easy as that.
If the added working time has much value they'll find a way to compensate. This way it simply means that you can't force a fastfood worker to do closing shift and then still clean after they've done their work.
Outside of the pure "pair of hands" work there is a lot of evidence that more working time doesn't increase productivity.
And, really, life is about more than just work. No need to allow companies to slowly erode the rights previous generations of workers have fought for.
Re: European Court of Justice: EU employers must track working time in detail
#10Earlier quoted context omitted.
Seems very reasonable to me, don't know why you call this bureaucracy: "The Court holds that, in the absence of a system enabling the duration of time worked each day by each worker to be measured, it is not possible to determine, objectively and reliably, either the number of hours worked and when that work was done, or the number of hours of overtime worked [...]" ALL places I have worked at have this in some way.…
For project budget and billing purposes, it is sufficient to track the number of hours each day. This court decision, however, would require to also track the start and end time, as well as the durations of all breaks. That's because there are laws regulating how much break time you have to take each day (dependend on how many hours you work) and also how much time has to pass between two work days. If you're working…
No idea why you're so bitter about this, but obviously there is no expectation that each minute is recorded. This just spreads a common practice to the exploitative employers that don't respect workers rights - such as the right to have a20 minute break during the day.