EFF: Online Speech is Only as Strong as the Weakest Intermediary
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Re: EFF: Online Speech is Only as Strong as the Weakest Intermediary
#2Re: EFF: Online Speech is Only as Strong as the Weakest Intermediary
#3'While it's impossible to know whether or not Amazon's decision was directly caused by the call from the senator's office, we do know that Lieberman has proposed "anti-WikiLeaks legislation" and that he has a history of pushing for online censorship in the name of "security."'
But then for the rest of the piece they make strong statements assuming that it is true:
"That makes it all the more unfortunate that Amazon caved to unofficial government pressure to squelch core political speech. Amazon had an opportunity to stand up for its customer's right to free expression. Instead, Amazon ran away with its tail between its legs."
I wish they'd found a more honest way to make their point than innuendo. They could have at least kept it as a question for the reader to answer in their own mind.
Re: EFF: Online Speech is Only as Strong as the Weakest Intermediary
#4Whilst I agree with the point they are trying to make, they article is argued in a fallacious way that made me feel uncomfortable - they start off by acknowledging that there is no way to know whether Amazon really caved because of the call from Lieberman: 'While it's impossible to know whether or not Amazon's decision was directly caused by the call from the senator's office, we do know that Lieberman has proposed "…
What if anything to do about that situation is trickier, which I guess is one reason for the EFF to frame it the other way. If indeed it was explicitly government pressure behind the scenes that caused Amazon's decision, then the analysis isn't nearly as tricky, because it's just government censorship, so what the EFF should do about it is obvious (oppose censorship, like they always do).
Re: EFF: Online Speech is Only as Strong as the Weakest Intermediary
#5Whilst I agree with the point they are trying to make, they article is argued in a fallacious way that made me feel uncomfortable - they start off by acknowledging that there is no way to know whether Amazon really caved because of the call from Lieberman: 'While it's impossible to know whether or not Amazon's decision was directly caused by the call from the senator's office, we do know that Lieberman has proposed "…
If Amazon had just kept the site up, OR if there was no call to their offices about it, and they removed WikiLeaks on their own, the perception would be different. A more independent Amazon and a world where US companies can make their own legal decisions about content without Gov't interference or coercion.
Now the perception is someone as big as Amazon can get scared by a phone call, and no place is safe to put a site that might tick off a gov't official, and they get ticked off at a LOT of stuff.
Re: EFF: Online Speech is Only as Strong as the Weakest Intermediary
#6Whilst I agree with the point they are trying to make, they article is argued in a fallacious way that made me feel uncomfortable - they start off by acknowledging that there is no way to know whether Amazon really caved because of the call from Lieberman: 'While it's impossible to know whether or not Amazon's decision was directly caused by the call from the senator's office, we do know that Lieberman has proposed "…
Regardless this is a clear message that if you are going to publish something controversial online, Amazon (and likely similar providers) are not the place to do it.
Unfortunately the scope of what is controversial is quickly expanding and already encompasses what some would consider speech vital to maintaining the rights and freedoms granted to citizens of the US.
Re: EFF: Online Speech is Only as Strong as the Weakest Intermediary
#7Whilst I agree with the point they are trying to make, they article is argued in a fallacious way that made me feel uncomfortable - they start off by acknowledging that there is no way to know whether Amazon really caved because of the call from Lieberman: 'While it's impossible to know whether or not Amazon's decision was directly caused by the call from the senator's office, we do know that Lieberman has proposed "…
Re: EFF: Online Speech is Only as Strong as the Weakest Intermediary
#81. They are not in business to be martyrs for a cause or to take unnecessary risks unrelated to their core business goals.
2. This piece correctly points out that the media cannot be subjected to prior restraints in publishing protectable speech. However, the 1971 New York Times (Pentagon Papers) case left open the obvious possibility that they might be prosecuted criminally after-the-fact and the law is such today that the sort of activity engaged in by WikiLeaks may readily be punishable as a crime (the thorny issues associated with this are nicely discussed in this even-handed piece from Slate: http://www.slate.com/id/2276592/).
3. The furor surrounding WikiLeaks does not begin and end with one senator. The Justice Department, the Pentagon, and the Obama administration generally have indicated that they desire to find a way to punish this conduct if possible and are actively investigating ways to do so. This is not to mention that the overwhelming majority of politicians of all stripes have condemned it. Now, whether they are right or wrong, protectors of the country or boneheads out to suppress civil liberties, this has the feel of a lynching about to happen. And even those who vigorously support WikiLeaks must concur that they are operating in and about the edges of the law. Yes, there may be no violation of the 1917 Espionage Act occurring because the motives of Mr. Assange do not meet the statutory test for a criminal act, and, yes, the Act may not technically apply to the activity here, and, yes, the Act may be unconstitutional if tested all the way up to the Supreme Court in this sort of case, . . . but why would you want your company to be part of the test case? (My guess is that many of the principals behind Amazon, PayPal, etc. actually find themselves in sympathy with the spirit of WikiLeaks but that they are not allowing any such sympathies to color their business decisions). I would sum this point up by saying that mainstream companies do not want to find themselves aligned with high-profile situations skirting the edge of the law. Call it "turning tail" but I don't know very many responsible executives who would decide the issue differently (strictly from a business point of view).
4. Regardless of business factors, it does look bad for these businesses to be caving to political pressure. They can technically justify their actions on grounds that the WikiLeaks activities may violate their terms of service (whether or not they are in fact criminal, if the highest criminal enforcement authorities in the nation are on a concerted campaign to determine that they are, the service provider is in no position to second guess this). In spite of this, the appearance is one of caving on a point where the provider could, if it elected, choose to stand its ground in favor of principle. Thus, whatever the reality, it certainly looks cowardly.
Ergo, a no-win situation for these service providers. I know many in the HN community are outraged over their actions but I think the case is more complex than typically assumed.
Re: EFF: Online Speech is Only as Strong as the Weakest Intermediary
#9This is not a happy situation for the intermediary service providers for a variety of reasons: 1. They are not in business to be martyrs for a cause or to take unnecessary risks unrelated to their core business goals. 2. This piece correctly points out that the media cannot be subjected to prior restraints in publishing protectable speech. However, the 1971 New York Times (Pentagon Papers) case left open the obvious…
> I know many in the HN community are outraged over their actions
I'm wouldn't say I'm outraged. I just think it's a great chance to show Amazon, and all the other companies caught in this situation, that there's also a big potential cost of not standing up.
Re: EFF: Online Speech is Only as Strong as the Weakest Intermediary
#10If you want to attack Amazon's decision, then you must attack the forces and structure behind it. If this was a game, Amazon made the right move. Don't hate the player, hate the game. Please.