Live data from Hacker News

Dystopia Is What Results from the Attempt to Create Utopia

kirkcenter.org

1–10 of 214 posts

Re: Dystopia Is What Results from the Attempt to Create Utopia

#2
We don’t fully understand how society works. There is an emerging field known as Cliodynamics that has started to identity cycles and feedback loops societies go through.

For instance, people raised inside of a generation tend to have a similar cluster of personality traits to some degree. These traits propel certain innovations forward , leave other things lagging, and cause a reaction formation in the next generation who tend to value opposite traits. These new traits then alter which innovations are pushed forward, which are left behind, etc.

There are additional cycles I’m not covering here, but together they form a sort of “super cycle” with great periods of unrest as well as innovation occurring when the lines converge periodically.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cliodynamics

Re: Dystopia Is What Results from the Attempt to Create Utopia

#3
I took a philosophy course on Utopian and Dystopian literature last year. The takeaway I had from the course is even more stark than this headline: Utopia and Dystopia are two names for the same concept.

In all of the utopias we studied -- from Plato's Republic through Thomas More's Utopia and including Marx's Communist Manifesto -- the question that kept ringing in my ears was "utopia for whom?" Every utopia makes assumptions about people that naturally divide them into identifiable groups. Some of these groups end up happy, others not so much. A utopia which purports to make everyone happy (shouldn't they all?) is one that assumes all people are the same or it endeavours to make them so. Either way, we lose our humanity in the process.

Re: Dystopia Is What Results from the Attempt to Create Utopia

#4
Politics is a see-saw of right and left policey, swings one way, then over time the objection to that swing grows and you end up swinging the other way. But then, you can see this historically with the two party system, even though you have more than a choice of two. Those two are the majority and the way politics works, it's the majority (however small).

So yes, a push to one direction or another will increase and raise risistance, but then that's due to lack of engaging with the resistance and as we see play out time and time again in politics. Instead of engaging, it becomes one of posturing and what I call playground politics, with name calling and labeling to dismiss the opersition. Both sides are guilty of this, they both equaly hate it when they are the minority at the time and on the recieving end. Yet nothing changes. So you end up with a sing to one side for a few years or decade and then a swing the other way.

How do you solve it, well as with any negotiation, compromise, as they do in buisness. But I'm sure many who have been at board meeting trying to get thru a project would love to resort to the political approach of labeling and dismissing all objections and vilionising such objections in an internal marketing campaign. But we don't as we are adults. I just lament how politics today on both sides, often forget they are adults and left the playground behind years ago.

Sure there are politicians who are above such approaches, but alas they are drowned up by the masses and I often wonder - has politics today improved or gone downhill? Equally has it always been the case and is it more due to more faster communications of the news and media access that has allowed us to see it more clearly?

But then, physics has taught us that for every action there is a reaction. Which parallels in many walks of life outside physics.

Re: Dystopia Is What Results from the Attempt to Create Utopia

#5
More generally speaking, when you optimize on a particular set of metrics to the extreme (when it comes to social issues this is what utopias try to do), you will inevitably cause another set of metrics to be correspondingly de-optimized to the extreme (which can be qualified as dystopian).

There is no way to optimize everything simultaneously because many things are fundamentally inversely correlated with each other (e.g. security vs freedom). So you either have a state that is relatively balanced (everything is mediocre), or a state with more spread (some aspects are really good and some are really bad).

Re: Dystopia Is What Results from the Attempt to Create Utopia

#6
An article brought to you by an institute that believes in:

"There are certain permanent things in society: the health of the family, inherited political institutions that insure a measure of order and justice and freedom, a life of diversity and independence, a life marked by widespread possession of private property. These permanent things guarantee against arbitrary interference by the state. These are all aspects of conservative thought, which have developed gradually as the debate since the French Revolution has gone on."

Re: Dystopia Is What Results from the Attempt to Create Utopia

#8
post #3

I took a philosophy course on Utopian and Dystopian literature last year. The takeaway I had from the course is even more stark than this headline: Utopia and Dystopia are two names for the same concept. In all of the utopias we studied -- from Plato's Republic through Thomas More's Utopia and including Marx's Communist Manifesto -- the question that kept ringing in my ears was "utopia for whom?" Every utopia makes a…

> A utopia which purports to make everyone happy (shouldn't they all?) is one that assumes all people are the same or it endeavours to make them so.

So the contrapositive is that because people differ all societies require some people to suffer? That's a great way to justify all sorts of exploitation.

> In all of the utopias ... including Marx's Communist Manifesto

Ah, the Chicago school framing. What's primarily a positive work describing existing material conditions and relations is utopian, because it is not a kind assessment of those conditions.

Re: Dystopia Is What Results from the Attempt to Create Utopia

#9

We don’t fully understand how society works. There is an emerging field known as Cliodynamics that has started to identity cycles and feedback loops societies go through. For instance, people raised inside of a generation tend to have a similar cluster of personality traits to some degree. These traits propel certain innovations forward , leave other things lagging, and cause a reaction formation in the next generati…

In fairness to the humanities, there has been a good deal of research and knowledge via sociology for a long while.

Re: Dystopia Is What Results from the Attempt to Create Utopia

#10
post #3

I took a philosophy course on Utopian and Dystopian literature last year. The takeaway I had from the course is even more stark than this headline: Utopia and Dystopia are two names for the same concept. In all of the utopias we studied -- from Plato's Republic through Thomas More's Utopia and including Marx's Communist Manifesto -- the question that kept ringing in my ears was "utopia for whom?" Every utopia makes a…

Supposedly Plato's Republic was meant ironically to satisfy the powermonger Thrasymachus.
Post reply on HN