Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Show HN: Lima, a Swift-based DSL for responsive iOS development

github.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

1–10 of 21 posts

Re: Show HN: Lima, a Swift-based DSL for responsive iOS development

#2

Post by matchbok »

Pretty cool. All of the layout options for iOS are pretty subpar (coming from a web/android background):

IB/storyboard are trash (WYSIWYG is so 90s and dragging and poking around a huge visual editor is a huge time sink)

AutoLayout is verbose and complex, even with helper libraries.

It'd be super cool if we could use something like XML with Lima.

Re: Show HN: Lima, a Swift-based DSL for responsive iOS development

#3

Post by dep_b »

matchbok wrote: post #2

Pretty cool. All of the layout options for iOS are pretty subpar (coming from a web/android background): IB/storyboard are trash (WYSIWYG is so 90s and dragging and poking around a huge visual editor is a huge time sink) AutoLayout is verbose and complex, even with helper libraries. It'd be super cool if we could use something like XML with Lima.

> AutoLayout is verbose and complex, even with helper libraries.

I don't think they can get much shorter than this:

    private func addConstraints() {
        introduction.attach(sides: [.top, .leading, .trailing], 8.layoutGuideRespecting)
        contact
            .attach(sides: [.leading, .trailing], 8)
            .space(8, .below, introduction)
        spinner.center()
        error
            .attach(sides: [.leading, .trailing], 8)
            .space(8, .below, contact)

        create.attach(sides: [.top, .bottom, .trailing], 3)
    }
And honestly the stuff I needed to do to get CSS working let alone cross-browser until very recently was really not as consistent, clean or predictable as auto layouts. I think you just got used to the suffering.

The only thing I really like about CSS is the arbitrary lines you can draw in the sand like "if it gets over 1000px wide then move the menu to the right".

Re: Show HN: Lima, a Swift-based DSL for responsive iOS development

#4

Post by matchbok »

dep_b wrote: post #3
matchbok wrote: post #2

Pretty cool. All of the layout options for iOS are pretty subpar (coming from a web/android background): IB/storyboard are trash (WYSIWYG is so 90s and dragging and poking around a huge visual editor is a huge time sink) AutoLayout is verbose and complex, even with helper libraries. It'd be super cool if we could use something like XML with Lima.

> AutoLayout is verbose and complex, even with helper libraries. I don't think they can get much shorter than this: private func addConstraints() { introduction.attach(sides: [.top, .leading, .trailing], 8.layoutGuideRespecting) contact .attach(sides: [.leading, .trailing], 8) .space(8, .below, introduction) spinner.center() error .attach(sides: [.leading, .trailing], 8) .space(8, .below, contact) create.attach(sides…

Agreed... I'd much prefer a declarative layout language though. With complex layouts, it's hard to debug AL if you aren't the one who built it.

Even stackviews, which was Apple admitting that simple layouts are too verbose to do with AL, are a mess.

Re: Show HN: Lima, a Swift-based DSL for responsive iOS development

#5

Post by dep_b »

matchbok wrote: post #4
dep_b wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> AutoLayout is verbose and complex, even with helper libraries. I don't think they can get much shorter than this: private func addConstraints() { introduction.attach(sides: [.top, .leading, .trailing], 8.layoutGuideRespecting) contact .attach(sides: [.leading, .trailing], 8) .space(8, .below, introduction) spinner.center() error .attach(sides: [.leading, .trailing], 8) .space(8, .below, contact) create.attach(sides…

Agreed... I'd much prefer a declarative layout language though. With complex layouts, it's hard to debug AL if you aren't the one who built it. Even stackviews, which was Apple admitting that simple layouts are too verbose to do with AL, are a mess.

Well storyboards are declarative if you view the source but they're burdened with a ton of legacy. If a view is constrained by auto layouts the frame values should disappear but they don't, leading to a ton of false positives when committing changes. You only have cryptic ID's not real names as references. Also making a mistake in the XML format tends to crash the parser without giving a usable clue to what went wrong.

Last problem is that everything in Interface Builder still lives apart from the code. I think in Android everything gets compiled and is safe to use from there, with IBOutlets you're always either taking the risk (!) or dealing with optionals everywhere (?)

Re: Show HN: Lima, a Swift-based DSL for responsive iOS development

#6

Post by oflannabhra »

matchbok wrote: post #4
dep_b wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> AutoLayout is verbose and complex, even with helper libraries. I don't think they can get much shorter than this: private func addConstraints() { introduction.attach(sides: [.top, .leading, .trailing], 8.layoutGuideRespecting) contact .attach(sides: [.leading, .trailing], 8) .space(8, .below, introduction) spinner.center() error .attach(sides: [.leading, .trailing], 8) .space(8, .below, contact) create.attach(sides…

Agreed... I'd much prefer a declarative layout language though. With complex layouts, it's hard to debug AL if you aren't the one who built it. Even stackviews, which was Apple admitting that simple layouts are too verbose to do with AL, are a mess.

Rumor is that official, cross-platform declarative layouts are coming to iOS from Apple [0].

[0] - https://daringfireball.net/2018/04/scuttlebutt_regarding_ui_...

Re: Show HN: Lima, a Swift-based DSL for responsive iOS development

#7

Post by tijs »

oflannabhra wrote: post #6
matchbok wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed... I'd much prefer a declarative layout language though. With complex layouts, it's hard to debug AL if you aren't the one who built it. Even stackviews, which was Apple admitting that simple layouts are too verbose to do with AL, are a mess.

Rumor is that official, cross-platform declarative layouts are coming to iOS from Apple [0]. [0] - https://daringfireball.net/2018/04/scuttlebutt_regarding_ui_...

Did that not turn out to be uikit port to macos?

https://thehackernews.com/2018/06/porting-ios-apps-macos.htm...

Re: Show HN: Lima, a Swift-based DSL for responsive iOS development

#9

Post by Klonoar »

Sometimes I feel like the only one who's totally fine with AutoLayout as-is. IMO it is hands-down the most straightforward and easy to understand way of constructing UI, and I've dealt with an insane number of UI toolkits over the years.

Furthermore, anytime I see someone complaining about it and I check out their solution with AL... they've overcomplicated how they're setting constraints and doing the layout, and it ends up usually being the issue more than AL itself.

Re: Show HN: Lima, a Swift-based DSL for responsive iOS development

#10

Post by oflannabhra »

tijs wrote: post #7
oflannabhra wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rumor is that official, cross-platform declarative layouts are coming to iOS from Apple [0]. [0] - https://daringfireball.net/2018/04/scuttlebutt_regarding_ui_...

Did that not turn out to be uikit port to macos? https://thehackernews.com/2018/06/porting-ios-apps-macos.htm...

No, I believe it is the case that Gruber conflated two separate projects (which might both be part of the same overall vision). The first was codenamed "Marzipan" and has been announced (and leaked and reported by Gurman). The second is what Gruber is speaking of in that article, and relates to laying out views. It has not been announced, but is codenamed Amber. Gruber clarified this post-Marzipan announcement in a tweet [0]. More info from Gurman [1].

[0] - https://mobile.twitter.com/gruber/status/1014490721909444608

[1] - https://mjtsai.com/blog/2018/05/01/scuttlebutt-regarding-app...

Post reply on HN