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The Mystical Ethics of the New Atheists (Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins, etc)

theobjectivestandard.com

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Re: The Mystical Ethics of the New Atheists (Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins, etc)

#3
I knew it was going to come down to (fucking) Ayn Rand, when the author started discussing the primacy of senses.

Anyway, I think the author makes a bit of a straw man argument when saying that Dawkins' "moral Zeitgeist" doesn't determine a rational, consistent basis for morality. I don't believe that Dawkins was trying to show that.

I believe that Dawkins was trying to show that both religious and irreligious folks derive their morals from the same place for the most part: the moral Zeitgeist. This is a counter to the argument that religion is necessary for morality, because morality for most people is drawn from the Zeitgeist either way.

I haven't read Dawkins, so I may be wrong in my assertions of what Dawkins intended, but it feels like the author covertly (or accidentally) tried to shift the focus away from countering the "religion is necessary for morals" argument, onto a different topic (that of defining rational morals).

Re: The Mystical Ethics of the New Atheists (Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins, etc)

#4
post #3

I knew it was going to come down to (fucking) Ayn Rand, when the author started discussing the primacy of senses. Anyway, I think the author makes a bit of a straw man argument when saying that Dawkins' "moral Zeitgeist" doesn't determine a rational, consistent basis for morality. I don't believe that Dawkins was trying to show that. I believe that Dawkins was trying to show that both religious and irreligious folks…

Yep, the article is completely missing the point. My favorite bit:

"Those who maintain that being moral consists in being altruistic have no alternative but to base that belief on some form of mysticism"

It's like they haven't heard of the iterated prisoner's dilemma or something.

Re: The Mystical Ethics of the New Atheists (Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins, etc)

#5
The initial premise is somewhat absurd. If the current scientific origin of the universe theories are wrong it does not follow that the genesis myths of religions a-z are any more probable merely because of this wrongness. Setting out thus to debunk a scientific theory explaining origins does not at the same time validate biblical genesis.

In the same sense attempting to attack the foundations of an irreligious framework for morality does not thus cause the facts to shift to supporting the position that religion is the source of morality. One does not need to go far in abrahamic religious dogma to find moral law which is abhorrent to modern ethical standards and immediately disqualifies such religions as a candidate for an actual source of modern morality.

The article attempts goes through various contortions to reduce all the candidate sources of morality to "altruism guided by intuition". I've not had much connection with Hitchens' or Dennet's works so I can't comment there, but if you look at Sam Harris' latest presentation from TED on ethics he pretty much directly holds up philosophical utilitarianism. Dawkins also mounts a case of modern ethical behaviour in "The God Delusion" as a simple case of a set of behaviour which confers evolutionary advantages upon the adopting group, with much supporting evidence for this, there is nothing "mysteriously shifting" about this position.

Re: The Mystical Ethics of the New Atheists (Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins, etc)

#6
I find the arguments presented poorly constructed and unsound. Examples:

"These and similar statements show that Hitchens equates morality with altruism" (does not follow from given quotes, furthermore this is a setup for a straw man argument)

"... it is observationally false that humans possess an innate sense of right and wrong: Many people, and not just psychopaths, make horrifically bad choices that ruin their own lives, the lives of others, or both." (this argument is unsound; the author states that since some people make bad choices sometimes, then humans must not know right from wrong innately. It's like saying "It's observationally false that humans possess eyesight: many people, and not just the blind, fail to see the mayonnaise when they go to the refrigerator even when it's right in the door.")

"Ironically, the claim to innate knowledge—the claim to “just knowing” something—is precisely what Hitchens and the other New Atheists condemn when they condemn faith." (Other than the author's misuse of the term "irony", I have not heard the "new atheists" put forth such an argument and the author does not put forth a citation or quote to support this claim. As I see it, rather than condemning innate knowledge, the "new atheists" condemn what they see as baseless claims of fact.)

"Hitchens subscribes to the idea that man is mentally and thus morally hampered by innate irrationality." A slight bit later, "If man cannot choose his actions, then he cannot have a guide to choosing his actions." So the author takes a quote from Hitchens where Hitchens says humans are "only partly rational" (Hitchen's words as quoted by the author) and then concludes that Hitchens thinks that man "cannot choose his actions" (I know that the phrase appeared after the word "if", but you can parse the full three paragraphs or so yourself).

I stopped reading the article at this point due to the high density of illogical statements. Stylistically, I find it in poor taste to capitalize "new atheists", but there's no accounting for taste.

Re: The Mystical Ethics of the New Atheists (Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins, etc)

#7
My biggest gripe with this article is that the ‘solution’ is introduced in the second-to-last paragraph. I’m a big fan of Ayn Rand, and I think the ‘New Atheists’ probably do have a lot to learn from Objectivism, since it seems a lot more internally consistent—nevertheless, in articles like these it should occupy more than just a footnote.

Re: The Mystical Ethics of the New Atheists (Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins, etc)

#8
post #4
post #3

I knew it was going to come down to (fucking) Ayn Rand, when the author started discussing the primacy of senses. Anyway, I think the author makes a bit of a straw man argument when saying that Dawkins' "moral Zeitgeist" doesn't determine a rational, consistent basis for morality. I don't believe that Dawkins was trying to show that. I believe that Dawkins was trying to show that both religious and irreligious folks…

Yep, the article is completely missing the point. My favorite bit: "Those who maintain that being moral consists in being altruistic have no alternative but to base that belief on some form of mysticism" It's like they haven't heard of the iterated prisoner's dilemma or something.

Illustrations like the prisoner's dilemma help convey how an entire group can benefit from certain behaviors, but they're less useful when making decisions as a lone, rational actor with access to many different groups and no reason to keep iterating.

And even if such illustrations were more helpful, they wouldn't rise to the same level as an imperative moral code. Why not just view them as a challenge to be overcome?

Re: The Mystical Ethics of the New Atheists (Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins, etc)

#9
Why do these alleged men of reason join men of faith in appealing to mysticism as a basis for morality? The reason is simple: The morality they seek to defend, altruism, cannot be grounded in reason or reality.

Best to skim things like this. It takes him a long time to get to the thesis statement which can only induce eye-rolling.

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/altruism-biological/

Re: The Mystical Ethics of the New Atheists (Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins, etc)

#10
post #3

I knew it was going to come down to (fucking) Ayn Rand, when the author started discussing the primacy of senses. Anyway, I think the author makes a bit of a straw man argument when saying that Dawkins' "moral Zeitgeist" doesn't determine a rational, consistent basis for morality. I don't believe that Dawkins was trying to show that. I believe that Dawkins was trying to show that both religious and irreligious folks…

"I knew it was going to come down to (fucking) Ayn Rand"

A disappointing end to the argument, IMO. Not just because of my personal dislike for Ayn Rand, but because it seems like it's just sort of stuck on the end there without appropriate justification. It would be better either without that part at all, or with a complete argument as to why Ayn Rand's position is not subject to the same criticism.

Religious morality is mystical? That's a reasonable point to argue. Dawkins' morality is equally mystical? The author presents a decent argument for this. Ayn Rand's morality is not mystical? Kind of a bold thing to merely assert and then duck out of the room.

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