The West Is Choked by Fear
spiegel.de
The West Is Choked by Fear
1–10 of 68 posts
Re: The West Is Choked by Fear
#2Hmm. Important stuff. But not really hackers news material. Or do I misunderstand the intention of this post?
Re: The West Is Choked by Fear
#3Hmm. Important stuff. But not really hackers news material. Or do I misunderstand the intention of this post?
It's one of those borderline posts - on the one hand it isn't really hacker news, but on the other hand it's important and about basic freedom. Which is dear to hackers. I think it has merit,so I upvoted it.
Re: The West Is Choked by Fear
#4I am a Muslim. I created a new account, as some will hold that against me.
This is just picking on someone who is too weak, uneducated and inarticulate to be able to defend themselves.
Fuck freedom of speech, it's not what this is about. You don't have, and never had, the right to slander someone in order to pick a fight. If I went to a bar, found the biggest and dumbest asshole in there and called his mother a filthy whore, guess how much sympathy I would get in court. Yet this is exactly what the newspaper did, in order to demonstrate how "choked by fear" we all should be.
The fact that the guy has to fear for his life is ridiculous, but what does that prove? That large part of Muslim populations are insecure and hypersensitive? They are also predominantly impoverished, uneducated and downtrodden, not to mention constantly in the crosshairs, perhaps things are connected? Treating individuals like this with a bit of sensitivity would be the civilized thing to do, rather than prodding them for a cheap thrill, or childishly insisting on the injustice of their uncouthness.
I am so sick of the hysteria, grandstanding and hypocrisy in this debate.
Re: The West Is Choked by Fear
#5I am a Muslim. I created a new account, as some will hold that against me. This is just picking on someone who is too weak, uneducated and inarticulate to be able to defend themselves. Fuck freedom of speech, it's not what this is about. You don't have, and never had, the right to slander someone in order to pick a fight. If I went to a bar, found the biggest and dumbest asshole in there and called his mother a filth…
Danish people tend to be confrontational. At least that's the impression I got when I lived there. Such a cartoon could only come from Denmark. It's offensive and distasteful, and the author should have kept in mind that insulting 1 billion people is a bad idea. His mistake.
However, what I do know is that Westerners in Muslim countries tend to play by the local rules (I am not talking of the U.S. Military in Iraq). By contrast, many Muslims in Western Europe refuse to accept the European culture. Is there racism a part of the problem? Yes, sure it is. But there's more to it: if you reject the local culture, the locals will reject you. Of course, the same goes for Westerners living in Muslim countries. A difference is that Westerners in Muslim countries are not at the bottom of the barrel as often as Muslims in the West are.
In my view it's as simple as this: adapt to our customs, or move back to where you came from. We, Europeans, do not like Muslim foreigners telling us that our women are whores, that we are spiritually dead, that we should not drink, etc. I know a bunch of Muslims living in Europe and, not surprisingly, the ones who are fully integrated in their host society and who have Western friends are the ones who accept the local culture and don't try to preach that their values are any better.
Re: The West Is Choked by Fear
#6I am a Muslim. I created a new account, as some will hold that against me. This is just picking on someone who is too weak, uneducated and inarticulate to be able to defend themselves. Fuck freedom of speech, it's not what this is about. You don't have, and never had, the right to slander someone in order to pick a fight. If I went to a bar, found the biggest and dumbest asshole in there and called his mother a filth…
"Fuck freedom of speech, it's not what this is about."
It's exactly what this is about. As an almost Atheist (lacking the needed faith to really be one) I find the Quram mildly disturbing (as I do with other sacred texts, the Bible included) in that it proposes to be the absolute truth that admits no questioning. I respect, however, your right to your faith. You may believe in whatever you like, and I will defend your right to it against those who may want to take it away from you. But, in return for my respect, I demand from you the same respect. If I believe the cartoons are funny and worthy of publication, I demand you respect my right to draw, discuss or even (if the authors so agree) to reproduce them. By hiding behind the "biggest and dumbest asshole" metaphor, you excuse yourself, and the intolerant people who find it right to kill authors for offending their faith, from the obligation to respect others. Muslims are not the dumbest and obviously can learn to live in societies that don't share religiously intolerant laws.
Some of the cartoons were funny. I had a couple good laughs out of them. Would I be offended if they were about Christ (I was raised a Catholic)? No way. Would I be offended if they had been about scientists (I am an almost-Atheist)? Of course not. They are cartoons, meant to be funny and to, sometimes, question beliefs.
If your faith cannot withstand questioning then, perhaps, you should question yourself how deep and true it really is.
Re: The West Is Choked by Fear
#7I am a Muslim. I created a new account, as some will hold that against me. This is just picking on someone who is too weak, uneducated and inarticulate to be able to defend themselves. Fuck freedom of speech, it's not what this is about. You don't have, and never had, the right to slander someone in order to pick a fight. If I went to a bar, found the biggest and dumbest asshole in there and called his mother a filth…
> Fuck freedom of speech, it's not what this is about. You don't have, and never had, the right to slander someone in order to pick a fight.
Yes it is. And yes I have. At least I have a right to do so without fearing for my life. What I don't have, is a right to have any friends when I'm done expressing myself.
> If I went to a bar, found the biggest and dumbest asshole in there and called his mother a filthy whore, guess how much sympathy I would get in court.
Not much, but the guy would get a conviction for voilence.
> Yet this is exactly what the newspaper did, in order to demonstrate how "choked by fear" we all should be.
No, it's not. Discussion a religion in the public sphere is no different from discussing a politician in the public sphere. It might, in both cases, be impolite, but no-one should expect physical violence because of it.
> They are also predominantly impoverished, uneducated and downtrodden, not to mention constantly in the crosshairs, perhaps things are connected?
Maybe, but I can tell you that the Muslim community in Denmark isn't exactly doing itself any favours by refusing to condemn the attack.
Absolutely, there is pundit after pundit lined up, trying to paint every Muslim in the world as violent fundamentalists just waiting to strap on a bomb and go blow some children up, and that makes me sick. But the Muslim community needs to stand up for itself and denounce and condemn the people committing these crimes, and stop making veiled defences for attempted murder.
Re: The West Is Choked by Fear
#8I am a Muslim. I created a new account, as some will hold that against me. This is just picking on someone who is too weak, uneducated and inarticulate to be able to defend themselves. Fuck freedom of speech, it's not what this is about. You don't have, and never had, the right to slander someone in order to pick a fight. If I went to a bar, found the biggest and dumbest asshole in there and called his mother a filth…
> Fuck freedom of speech, it's not what this is about. You don't have, and never had, the right to slander someone in order to pick a fight. Yes it is. And yes I have. At least I have a right to do so without fearing for my life. What I don't have, is a right to have any friends when I'm done expressing myself. > If I went to a bar, found the biggest and dumbest asshole in there and called his mother a filthy whore,…
We can hope willingness to blow oneself up to martyrdom could be a genetic trait. If it were, in a couple generations we would get our gene pool completely rid of it.
Unfortunately, I believe such anti-social behavior is more nurture than nature...
Re: The West Is Choked by Fear
#9In the UK at least, we deal with difficult subjects through satire. But where do you draw the line? I am one for open - although much material on the web is offensive (as seen from me). I'd have rather the images were reprinted, and have the whole thing forgotten about. But there was some gesture of respect and sensitivity shown by the west deriding the work. The debate has also come up with the turn around of the BBC to allow the BNP on question time. So I think it is important to provide the material and the appropriate fora, and freedoms of speech. The herd and mob mentality is usually a result of ignorance. But it takes a long time for attitudes to change. In Britain in the eighties, people were still afraid to speak their minds or challenge the establishment. My father's attitudes have changed incredibly over the last 10 years. And I guess so have mine.
My personal belief is that people can practice what they like, but with the following caveats: no harm to others, animals or the planet. I don't belong to any faith, but see myself as more 'Christian' then many practising Christians. People get lost in doctrine or the mob, and forget to question for themselves. Natural law is far simpler.
The web provides an outlet for many voices, who's authority do you trust? Moderation requires some form of censorship. I'd rather it all open. I can't stand pruned forums, they feel like rigged referendums. It's just incredibly difficult wading through it all. As usually the average Joe, hasn't really anything much interesting to say.
So is it fear or learned sensitivity?
Re: The West Is Choked by Fear
#10I am a Muslim. I created a new account, as some will hold that against me. This is just picking on someone who is too weak, uneducated and inarticulate to be able to defend themselves. Fuck freedom of speech, it's not what this is about. You don't have, and never had, the right to slander someone in order to pick a fight. If I went to a bar, found the biggest and dumbest asshole in there and called his mother a filth…
> they are also predominantly impoverished, uneducated and downtrodden, not to mention constantly in the crosshairs, perhaps things are connected?
Many Muslims I meet do exhibit these traits; however I think it is the product of their faith (hardline Christians are much the same - but not as bade) rather than societies attitude to them.