Show HN: Neverbleed – privilege separation engine for OpenSSL and LibreSSL
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Re: Show HN: Neverbleed – privilege separation engine for OpenSSL and LibreSSL
#2As an implementor using OpenSSL, I like this. It has a simple API, and is clearly documented.
I wish all security improvements were as simple and easy.
Re: Show HN: Neverbleed – privilege separation engine for OpenSSL and LibreSSL
#3Seems like a good idea, but it also seems like a lot of IPC. The author suggests that crypto costs more than IPC, so it doesn't matter much, which also seems reasonable, and I suppose most related DOS attacks are mitigated by disallowing client-initiated renegotiation anyway.
> Q. How much is the overhead?
> Virtually none.
> On my Linux VM running on Core i7 @ 2.4GHz (MacBook Pro 15" Late 2013)...
Re: Show HN: Neverbleed – privilege separation engine for OpenSSL and LibreSSL
#4How is it different than using a SoftHSM?
Re: Show HN: Neverbleed – privilege separation engine for OpenSSL and LibreSSL
#5Someone should make an LD_PRELOAD hack for this. I might try throwing one together this weekend if someone doesn't beat me to it.
Re: Show HN: Neverbleed – privilege separation engine for OpenSSL and LibreSSL
#6Seems like a good idea, but it also seems like a lot of IPC. The author suggests that crypto costs more than IPC, so it doesn't matter much, which also seems reasonable, and I suppose most related DOS attacks are mitigated by disallowing client-initiated renegotiation anyway. > Q. How much is the overhead? > Virtually none. > On my Linux VM running on Core i7 @ 2.4GHz (MacBook Pro 15" Late 2013)... Would love to see…
Why would it matter? He already has an uphill battle with virtualization and seems a minimal amount of overhead. I expect running this on big iron should show similar or less overhead. If you're just looking for benchmarks of OpenSSL termination there are already a ton of them out there.
Re: Show HN: Neverbleed – privilege separation engine for OpenSSL and LibreSSL
#7How is it different than using a SoftHSM?
probably lower overhead. PKCS#11 is a lot bigger than this.
Re: Show HN: Neverbleed – privilege separation engine for OpenSSL and LibreSSL
#8I applaud the effort but it does not address the elephant in the room: openssl engines are synchronous. If you use openssl in an event-loop style server (coincidentally, OP's own web server h2o appears to be event-loop based), this means that the whole server blocks if the RSA operation blocks.
For a hardware accelerator that may not be so bad but if you are trying to separate the HSM via the network, to minimize what an attacker can do after compromising the httpd, then every packet loss or an outage or network delay (or, more generally, any latency) would block the whole httpd.
Cloudflare proclaimed a while ago that they had a way to do essentially this (with nginx+openssl) and they said their solution was non-blocking, but they did not publish the code as far as I can tell.
I think if one wanted to solve this problem properly, larger architectural changes to openssl would be necessary. Please correct me if I'm wrong!
EDIT: Also, if you move out the RSA operation, ideally you'd want to distribute the work over more than one CPU core. If the operation is synchronous, you can't really do that.
Re: Show HN: Neverbleed – privilege separation engine for OpenSSL and LibreSSL
#9I applaud the effort but it does not address the elephant in the room: openssl engines are synchronous. If you use openssl in an event-loop style server (coincidentally, OP's own web server h2o appears to be event-loop based), this means that the whole server blocks if the RSA operation blocks. For a hardware accelerator that may not be so bad but if you are trying to separate the HSM via the network, to minimize wha…
I assume you are referring to Keyless SSL.
https://blog.cloudflare.com/keyless-ssl-the-nitty-gritty-tec...
For Keyless SSL, it is necessary to make RSA operations asynchronous, since the operations are requested over the TCP network (which may have big delays).
OTOH Neverbleed degelates the operations within the same server using Unix sockets. So there is no fear of such delays. And the server spawn a dedicated thread to each client thread. In other words, the delay is practically _no worse_ than what it is without Neverbleed.
And discussing _how worse_ it is, calculations related to TLS handshakes may block the server for a few milliseconds. It may sound bad, but generally speaking it is negligible comparing to the latency over a public network.
Re: Show HN: Neverbleed – privilege separation engine for OpenSSL and LibreSSL
#10I applaud the effort but it does not address the elephant in the room: openssl engines are synchronous. If you use openssl in an event-loop style server (coincidentally, OP's own web server h2o appears to be event-loop based), this means that the whole server blocks if the RSA operation blocks. For a hardware accelerator that may not be so bad but if you are trying to separate the HSM via the network, to minimize wha…
I assume you are referring to Keyless SSL. https://blog.cloudflare.com/keyless-ssl-the-nitty-gritty-tec... For Keyless SSL, it is necessary to make RSA operations asynchronous, since the operations are requested over the TCP network (which may have big delays). OTOH Neverbleed degelates the operations within the same server using Unix sockets. So there is no fear of such delays. And the server spawn a dedicated threa…
The point is that it requires TLS handshakes to be done in a multi-threaded system for a server handling high concurrency.
Many servers are multi-threaded, but many are not. Using the proposed technique in a Node.js process, or nginx, is going to severely limit the number of new connections per second.