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The Last Kings of Donkey Kong

fivethirtyeight.com

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Re: The Last Kings of Donkey Kong

#2

Post by JoshTriplett »

Interestingly, despite the mention of the theoretical perfect score (1,265,000), I've never actually seen the calculation for that. I've also never seen a TAS of Donkey Kong aiming for score; if that perfect score is actually achievable, it should be possible to construct a TAS that does so.

Re: The Last Kings of Donkey Kong

#3

Post by MrJagil »

JoshTriplett wrote: post #2

Interestingly, despite the mention of the theoretical perfect score (1,265,000), I've never actually seen the calculation for that. I've also never seen a TAS of Donkey Kong aiming for score; if that perfect score is actually achievable, it should be possible to construct a TAS that does so.

"a random number generator determines the value of many of the prizes you encounter and the path some of the obstacles take."

Seemingly, you would still need several TAS-tries because of the RNG, right? (Unless you can rewind and the 'random' is calculated as a function of something separate from the running instance of the game.)

Re: The Last Kings of Donkey Kong

#4

Post by rizzin »

MrJagil wrote: post #3
JoshTriplett wrote: post #2

Interestingly, despite the mention of the theoretical perfect score (1,265,000), I've never actually seen the calculation for that. I've also never seen a TAS of Donkey Kong aiming for score; if that perfect score is actually achievable, it should be possible to construct a TAS that does so.

"a random number generator determines the value of many of the prizes you encounter and the path some of the obstacles take." Seemingly, you would still need several TAS-tries because of the RNG, right? (Unless you can rewind and the 'random' is calculated as a function of something separate from the running instance of the game.)

Some games have mechanisms to manipulate their RNG and it is even used in some TASes.

During this year's SGDQ's TAS block they had a TAS of a Sonic game that used exactly this technique: the bot waited at the title screen the exact amount of frames to manipulate the seed of the game's RNG.

Perhaps a similar mechanism can be used for DK.

Re: The Last Kings of Donkey Kong

#6

Post by chipsy »

rizzin wrote: post #4
MrJagil wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"a random number generator determines the value of many of the prizes you encounter and the path some of the obstacles take." Seemingly, you would still need several TAS-tries because of the RNG, right? (Unless you can rewind and the 'random' is calculated as a function of something separate from the running instance of the game.)

Some games have mechanisms to manipulate their RNG and it is even used in some TASes. During this year's SGDQ's TAS block they had a TAS of a Sonic game that used exactly this technique: the bot waited at the title screen the exact amount of frames to manipulate the seed of the game's RNG. Perhaps a similar mechanism can be used for DK.

Botting the whole game for perfection involves a huge number of permutations since it's a dynamic system. But fastest time is arguably a less complex problem than maximum score since fewer of the RNG events "matter" to time attacks. In a game like Donkey Kong, maximizing one score-relevant event may take away from another.

My favorite RNG manipulation is the King's Bounty TAS:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gm9cKEWbTiU

If you don't get it, here is the summary: To win King's Bounty your hero must find and dig up the randomly-located Sceptre of Order. This normally means questing around for map pieces, combat, recruitment, etc. But with some RNG manipulation it can be placed right outside your starting point.

The run posted actually improved upon the previous one with a new bot that does a more exhaustive search.

Re: The Last Kings of Donkey Kong

#8

Post by panic »

chipsy wrote: post #6
rizzin wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some games have mechanisms to manipulate their RNG and it is even used in some TASes. During this year's SGDQ's TAS block they had a TAS of a Sonic game that used exactly this technique: the bot waited at the title screen the exact amount of frames to manipulate the seed of the game's RNG. Perhaps a similar mechanism can be used for DK.

Botting the whole game for perfection involves a huge number of permutations since it's a dynamic system. But fastest time is arguably a less complex problem than maximum score since fewer of the RNG events "matter" to time attacks. In a game like Donkey Kong, maximizing one score-relevant event may take away from another. My favorite RNG manipulation is the King's Bounty TAS: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gm9cKEWb…

Here are the authors' comments on the video which go into more detail: http://tasvideos.org/2025S.html

Re: The Last Kings of Donkey Kong

#10

Post by toxican »

chkuendig wrote: post #5

See also: "The King of Kong", an amazing introduction to the scene of competitive donkey Kong playing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gi2lApoZ5lY

It's a very good documentary, but I've heard that it's edited in such a way to make the original highscore holder look like more of a villain. Not to mention that the highscore changed hands several times over the years, but it was presented as though it had been held by one guy for the last 20-30 years.
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