Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO • Hacker News Board

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#991

Post by victorhooi » Sat, Apr 05, 2014, 11:40 AM UTC

Borogove wrote: post #973

victorhooi wrote: post #838

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you really think that's what this is about? Sorry, but I call fake. In many countries, you have the concept of de-facto relationships - you don't even need to be married, let alone have a civil union, and you have the same rights. So it's not like the courts couldn't do it - and in many cases have. However, this entire debate is purely one of ideology and semantics. It was never about "privileges" (whether tax, me…

The idea that homosexual relationships "have nothing to do with families" is simply laughable.

And why is it laughable?

The definition of the traditional nuclear family unit, and the inherent roles and responsibilities as we currently know them is very much geared towards man-and-woman relationships.

You could argue that we should change these definitions - but until the, how the majority of people in most countries think of families is very much coloured by the concept of the nuclear family.

Then again, times are a changing - so maybe you'll argue that in the future, we'll do away with the concept of this procreation business, and just clone humans, or have surrogate artificial wombs and we'll just pick our kids off an assembly line fully grown =).

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#992

Post by mercurial » Sat, Apr 05, 2014, 1:26 PM UTC

timtas wrote: post #988

mercurial wrote: post #899

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look at it this way. If at the time of the invasion of Iraq, people suddenly noticed Eich had donated to an anti-war cause, or maybe mentioned in private that he thought 9/11 was a consequence of US foreign policy, how many red-blooded, freedom-fries eating Americans would have asked for his head because he held an unpopular opinion?

You seem to intend this as a rhetorical question, but I think it's an excellent literal question. Did this happen? Perhaps you will cite some cases.

I'm not aware of any case, but it's possible. You may have examples during the Vietnam war or the Red Scare. The basic issue is the same, though: is it OK to let the Vox Populi evict a CEO for holding currently unpopular views?

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#993

Post by Amillennialist » Sat, Apr 05, 2014, 4:55 PM UTC

dopamean wrote: post #131

DangerousPie wrote: post #45

I am a strong supporter of gay marriage, but I have to say that I find this very unfortunate and worrying. Apparently many Mozilla supporters seem to think it is okay to bully a qualified person out of his job only for his political views, even if they had absolutely no effect on his qualification or his actions on the job. I can't help but feel like this campaign has done a lot more harm to him than his $1000 donati…

I generally agree with you but I think the problem here is that being against gay marriage is more than just a "political view." Being for low taxes is a political view. Being for smaller government is a political view. Believing a certain group of people don't deserve to live their lives like other simply because of who they love is not a political view. It reads as extremely hateful and that makes people uncomforta…

"Believing a certain group of people don't deserve to live their lives like other simply because of who they love is not a political view. It reads as extremely hateful and that makes people uncomfortable."

Sin is not "love." And lust does not create a Constitutional right.

Refusing to legitimize an unnatural and perverse act by calling it "marriage" is not bigotry; refusing to redefine one of society's fundamental institutions is not "hateful" (but demonizing those who defend it is).

No one I know wants to deny anyone their license to play house with the consenting adult(s) of their choosing.

Not all adults have the right to marry. Would you abolish all barriers to it? Would you redefine the word into absurdity?

What about sodomy makes it sacrosanct to you? It's a behavior; as such, it is subject to moral judgment. Where do you draw the line? Incest? Polygyny? Zoophilia? Pedophilia? A young adult male and his browser? Why can't they all get married? What gives you the right to deny them their equality? Who are you to forbid their happiness? Why are you such a hater?

You don't have any problem making moral judgments against those whose morality you despise. That makes you "extremely hateful," doesn't it?

This isn't about equal rights. (How absurd.) This isn't about "letting people live like others."

This is about using the force of government -- and now, the marketplace -- to coerce the endorsement of that which is immoral and unnatural. This is about demonizing those whose positions you dislike.

And that doesn't even depend on religious doctrine -- though Christ's endorsement of one man, one woman, for life with the glorious possibility of children should be enough.

Nowhere in Nature does any species engage in exclusively-homosexual relationships. Even the Darwinist knows that exclusively-homosexual relationships mean the end of the species. And it's a violation of design; even a simple man knows that the relevant organs are made for ... other purposes.

And you won't let Eich "live his life like others."

Fascist. Hypocrite.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#994

Post by Amillennialist » Sat, Apr 05, 2014, 4:57 PM UTC

Stingray42 wrote: post #971

wpietri wrote: post #740

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Putting money behind Prop 8 helped strip a civil right from gay people. It's technically true that proves nothing about Eich's beliefs. Heck, maybe it was Eich's personal Opposite Day. But does it matter? Even the bible says, "You will know them by their fruits," meaning that it's reasonable to judge people by what they do. The pseudo-gotcha about tolerance is ridiculous, an accusation of hypocrisy based on a straw m…

It's interesting that you refer to the Bible "you will know them by their fruits" meaning it is reasonable to judge people by what they do. Isn't that what we do when we oppose queer rights? You think it's OK to punish Eich for what he does. Bottom line is you justify your actions whenever you think you're right on an issue so what makes you think you're above someone who opposes queer rights.

Yes. "The only moral judgments that are acceptable are the ones we agree with."

So much for "tolerance."

Instead of attempting to demonize into silence those whose opinions they dislike, homosexual fascists ought to argue the merits of their position.

They can't, so they don't.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#995

Post by Amillennialist » Sat, Apr 05, 2014, 5:04 PM UTC

camus2 wrote: post #890

DatBear wrote: post #631

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I keep hearing people saying that gay marriage is more than just a political view, but so is every other political view. Don't support welfare? You're against poor people. Support welfare? You're against the working man. You're pro-choice? You're against babies. You're pro-life? You're against women. Pretty much every political stance can be viewed in the same fashion as people are viewing Eich's. The thing is, Eich…

Don't support welfare? You're against poor people. Support welfare? You're against the working man. You're pro-choice? You're against babies. You're pro-life? You're against women your black or white stance is a logical fallacy.

(How funny.)

He's pointing out the fallacies of the usurpers who make such "arguments."

Thanks for making his point.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#996

Post by acjohnson55 » Sat, Apr 05, 2014, 8:05 PM UTC

thrownaway2424 wrote: post #332

gfodor wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I support legalizing gay marriage. But two things, first, supporting prop 8 does not mean you "believe a certain group of people don't deserve to live their lives like others." It means you don't believe that the government should recognize same sex marriages as marriages. There are a large gradient of views here, and on one extreme are the bigots who hate homosexuals and on the other there are people who simply have…

Support for Prop 8 has a huge age gradient, as does anti-homosexuality in general. Support for Prop 8 falls by about 0.75% per year Ages 18-24 voted overwhelmingly against it. 65+ voted overwhelmingly for it. Old people hate gays. Young people don't. Support for Prop 8 among young people in the SF Bay Area is negligible. These are the people Eich was supposed to lead as CEO of Mozilla. You can't lead people who think…

You're assuming the people he briefly led and who worked with Eich for years thought of him this way. I'm hugely anti Prop 8, but "reprehensible bigot" is not a coat of paint I would use on all of its supporters.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#997

Post by acjohnson55 » Sat, Apr 05, 2014, 8:10 PM UTC

dredmorbius wrote: post #937

dopamean wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I generally agree with you but I think the problem here is that being against gay marriage is more than just a "political view." Being for low taxes is a political view. Being for smaller government is a political view. Believing a certain group of people don't deserve to live their lives like other simply because of who they love is not a political view. It reads as extremely hateful and that makes people uncomforta…

Being for low taxes is a political view. Being for smaller government is a political view. This is marching well out into controversial territory, but I don't see any clean division between "political" and "ethical" grounds. If you look at the founder of modern economic thought (called for a time "political economy", BTW), his other book is The Theory of Moral Sentiments , an explicitly moral work. Much of Wealth of…

Very thoughtful post, and I wish it weren't buried so deeply. I agree with you, and that's what makes me feel so uncomfortable with this past week's events, as much as I disagree with Prop 8 on both moral and political grounds.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#998

Post by wpietri » Sun, Apr 06, 2014, 5:10 AM UTC

Stingray42 wrote: post #971

wpietri wrote: post #740

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Putting money behind Prop 8 helped strip a civil right from gay people. It's technically true that proves nothing about Eich's beliefs. Heck, maybe it was Eich's personal Opposite Day. But does it matter? Even the bible says, "You will know them by their fruits," meaning that it's reasonable to judge people by what they do. The pseudo-gotcha about tolerance is ridiculous, an accusation of hypocrisy based on a straw m…

It's interesting that you refer to the Bible "you will know them by their fruits" meaning it is reasonable to judge people by what they do. Isn't that what we do when we oppose queer rights? You think it's OK to punish Eich for what he does. Bottom line is you justify your actions whenever you think you're right on an issue so what makes you think you're above someone who opposes queer rights.

I guess the same thing that makes me think I'm above people who are opposed to civil rights for black people, or any other group facing groundless prejudice.

Honestly, I don't think I'm above anybody in that sense. We all believe stupid shit, and sometimes that makes us do bad things. As I said, my problem isn't with Eich's action; a lot of people were on the wrong side of that issue. But until he has recognized that stripping a civil right from gay people was harmful and wrong, and until he says that he won't be trying to treat gay people as second-class citizens, then I think it's reasonable to ask whether he should have a position of power over the people he's helped oppress.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#999

Post by tripzilch » Sun, Apr 06, 2014, 12:19 PM UTC

DangerousPie wrote: post #45

I am a strong supporter of gay marriage, but I have to say that I find this very unfortunate and worrying. Apparently many Mozilla supporters seem to think it is okay to bully a qualified person out of his job only for his political views, even if they had absolutely no effect on his qualification or his actions on the job. I can't help but feel like this campaign has done a lot more harm to him than his $1000 donati…

Just because it's still up for debate in some of the more unenlightened parts of the world doesn't mean it's a reasonable position to support.

So, many things can be argued to be a "political view" somewhere.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#1000

Post by tripzilch » Sun, Apr 06, 2014, 12:58 PM UTC

gfodor wrote: post #209

dopamean wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I generally agree with you but I think the problem here is that being against gay marriage is more than just a "political view." Being for low taxes is a political view. Being for smaller government is a political view. Believing a certain group of people don't deserve to live their lives like other simply because of who they love is not a political view. It reads as extremely hateful and that makes people uncomforta…

I support legalizing gay marriage. But two things, first, supporting prop 8 does not mean you "believe a certain group of people don't deserve to live their lives like others." It means you don't believe that the government should recognize same sex marriages as marriages. There are a large gradient of views here, and on one extreme are the bigots who hate homosexuals and on the other there are people who simply have…

> people who simply have hangups about the word "marriage" vs "civil unions."

oh well, that's okay then.

?!

you do realize these people only have "hangups" about "marriage" vs "civil unions" when it concerns gay couples, right?

see on the one end of the spectrum you got bigots who hate minority X, and other other end you got these people who simply have hangups about treating them equal.

> As far as I know Brendan has never articulated his opinions on the matter, they have just been extrapolated from a $1,000 donation.

The most charitable opinion on the matter I can extrapolate from donation $1000 would be if he believed that this money would somehow be used to abolish "marriage" in favour of "civil union" in general, for same-sex, gay or corporate couples all alike.

Which would be such a dumb assumption that stepping down as CEO seems again very reasonable.

> In many parts of the country, support of prop 8 is a mainstream viewpoint.

In many parts of the world, hunting down and lynching gays is a mainstream viewpoint.

Also in those very same parts of your country, there's many other rather questionable mainstream viewpoints being held.

> People who have different upbringings in different geographic areas are of course going to be biased towards certain views, and it's a bit unfair to chastise them for not completely realigning their viewpoints overnight for something that has probably been the fastest and most productive civil rights movement, maybe ever.

It's not been "overnight", it's been years (maybe decades even). Now you can argue it's not fair to chastise large groups of people over geographic areas for realigning their viewpoints over many years. I could also argue that it is fair, but that's not even the issue here.

An individual can be expected to realign their viewpoint much quicker and can therefore be held to a much higher standard. And when this person is the CEO of Mozilla, I don't think it's unfair at all to hold them to that standard either. Whoever gets to make that call.

> This could have been an opportunity to attempt bring someone, a powerful CEO, to the side of being informed and support gay rights but instead it was a witch hunt and an embarrassment.

It's not a real witch hunt until we test the hypothesis that bigoted CEOs do not actually catch fire if you burn them at the stake, because they will be saved by The LORD for their unquestioning dedication to the sanctity of marriage. This is a widely held belief in many parts of the world and I guess the only real solution is that everybody just have at it and we'll see who gets out alive in the end (a traditional method of conflict-resolution that is also practised pretty much everywhere in the world).