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Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

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Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#991

Post by erikpukinskis »

Crito wrote: post #878
erikpukinskis wrote: post #769

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is the current situation like the Salem Witch Trials? My memory is that in that situation people were burned at the stake for allegedly doing things that are actually physically impossible to do. Like casting spells on children. In this case, an employee has accused other employees of several fireable, if not illegal, actions. No one has been burned, or is in danger of being burned. Possibly some people will be f…

During the 20th century, references to the Salem witch trials were used extensively to refer to hunts for people accused of doing things that were possible. Namely being a communist.^ Unlike witches, it actually is possible to be a communist, and it actually is plausible that there were communists in the Federal government. Comparing such communist hunts to witch hunts is not about comparing the nature of the accused…

I would object less to the term "witch hunt" which you're right has become idiomatic. But that's not the term that was used. The term used was "Salem Witch Trials".

Additionally, I still think there is a qualitative difference between "this person is bad because they're a member of a group we don't like" and "this person is bad because they did a real destructive thing."

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#992

Post by erikpukinskis »

gametheoretic wrote: post #809
erikpukinskis wrote: post #761

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That you would even think this says to me that you have zero appreciation for the unique capabilities women bring to the workforce. In my mind it's so obviously worth the risk.

The risk of potentially ending your company? Not unless you view those unique capabilities as being a 10x force multiplier.

I do.

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#993

Post by erikpukinskis »

derefr wrote: post #758
erikpukinskis wrote: post #753

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is sexist is that I think many people have not actually invested the energy in figuring out what the distribution of X, Y, and Z are. I think X is actually much more common in this kind of scenario than Y or Z, and honestly I think anyone who has actually gained the trust of a few women in tech and heard stories about what it is like is pretty likely to see that too. Anyone who throws their hands up and says "we…

You're doing exactly the thing people-who-are-oft-scapegoated are afraid of: equating "extremely probable" with "incontrovertibly proven." In an actual trial, for a conviction to take place, evidence would have to be presented that leaves no room for reasonable doubt --which is to say, the evidence would have to effectively take Y/Z/etc. out of consideration. We chose this standard because we, as a society, decided t…

No, probable is probable. I'm happy to talk about unlikely corner cases, in an appropriate sidebar. I think anyone pushing them as a primary talking point has their priorities misaligned and is tilting at windmills.

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#994

Post by erikpukinskis »

curun1r wrote: post #803
erikpukinskis wrote: post #729

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is, sadly, the best thing to do because you don't know who is going to take offense. I know you mean well, but your sadness to me belies some ignorance about what it's like to be a woman working in a male dominated field. You'd like to live in a world where you can casually watch beautiful people doing beautiful things. I don't begrudge you that, and I wouldn't accuse you of sexism. That said, I have zero inte…

The part that bothers me about this is that we're talking about a one-sided account of events where the terminology being used, "ogling," is entirely subjective. At my work, there is a woman who brings hula hoops to company events. When there's music, she likes to dance and do tricks with them and she obviously practices a lot. When she's doing it, people (including me) stare. But, at least for me, it has nothing to…

You're right, it is subjective. But to me there's no real cost to using the broadest possible definition I ogling. And the upside (making a wider range of people comfortable) is huge.

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#995

Post by msrobot0 »

einhverfr wrote: post #504
psykotic wrote: post #380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I mean, someone reverting your code because of a personal vendetta? I laughed out loud when I read this and several other specific details in the story. It sounded very familiar. I have several friends and many acquaintances who work at Valve. One very senior engineer initially worked on Source 2 about three years ago but had to quickly switch projects because another, more tenured engineer was expressing his disag…

> The founder's wife story also reminds me of episodes I've heard involving the wife cabal. It's nothing as sinister as the GitHub story, but I see a lot of the same structural issues reflected in these telling anecdotes. If you are male and a founder, one of your most valuable business resources is your wife. People will call me sexist for saying this, I expect, but women think socially with a level of complexity th…

So you should hire your wife and make her the CEO

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#996

Post by jdefarge »

"Julie Ann, Adria Richards and Shanley enter a bar: the bar just explodes because it's a symbol of the patriarchy."

But, seriously, I know various female programmers that I could trust not only my project, but my LIFE to. And as in the case of men, those are usually the low profile, highly productive, people. I doubt any "famous" developer this days in spite of gender/race/whatever. As with any hyped profession, there are a LOT of impostors trying to succeed without basic qualifications in computing. Hint: those are the ones who shout the loudest, have the highest number of followers on Twitter, but have very little, if any, REAL code on Github or any other public repositories. So... when the masks start to fell off they usually bail out their jobs loudly and pointing fingers to preserve their public personas. I doubt this is not the case of Julie Ann.

"You can fool all the people some of the time, and some of the people all the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time.", Abraham Lincoln

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#997

Post by grifpete »

grifpete wrote: post #837
gvb wrote: post #773

Earlier quoted context omitted.

GitHub cannot defend itself in public. It is a multimillion dollar company with a very disgruntled ex-employee charging them of sexual discrimination. You can bet their lawyers are saying in tones that cannot be ignored to not say anything until and unless it goes to trial.

Of course they can defend themselves in public. Corporations engage PR firms to manage that expertly for them all the time. And ironically, whether this goes to trial or not, the worse the objective case for Github the more confident you can be that their lawyers will be telling them to say little or nothing. Expect a very bland statement to appear shortly about how much they love and value their female employees. We…

Haha. It happened already. http://www.theverge.com/2014/3/19/5526574/github-sexism-scan... "Several female GitHub employees, who spoke with The Verge on condition of anonymity, said they’ve never felt gender discrimination at the company. "I don’t feel isolated or alone," one female developer says. "I have never personally experienced anything like that and I’ve never witnessed it.""

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#999

Post by AnonJ »

Indeed the unauthorized access to office sucks. But what strikes me the most is the totally nonsensical(to me) sensational emotional reactions of each person. How can trivial, pointless things be blown out of proportion as to incite "crying"/"shaking" reactions, passive-aggressive behaviors, and even code-deleting? Are they really grown-ups, 30s & 40s, or just 3-year-olds? This is insane.

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#1000

Post by karmajunkie »

thefreeman wrote: post #900
karmajunkie wrote: post #892

Earlier quoted context omitted.

well, fair enough, but the right way to indicate your confusion over that point isn't to ask whether she's a lesbian.

Is it the word "lesbian"? I apologize if that is considered offensive. I spent some time trying to think of what the most appropriate term would be, and I really couldn't think of anything better. What is the politically correct term to use?

No, its not the word "lesbian." Its the implication that a) you have a need to know whether she's lesbian or not; and b) that her status as lesbian or otherwise is relevant to the real issue, which is her status as a target of harassment.

I get that you're not trying to be offensive. What I don't get the sense you understand is that you don't have an inherent right to know things like her sexual orientation, history, background, favorite color, or anything else she doesn't volunteer.

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