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The ‘white-collar bloodbath’ is all part of the AI hype machine

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Re: The ‘white-collar bloodbath’ is all part of the AI hype machine

#991

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Curious, if you don’t mind mentioning what AIs you’re using (besides the obvious Claude, etc) and what for to augment your reach?

I think it's important to start with identifying your bottlenecks, and work from there to determine the solutions you need. In the case of our business, I feel that my time is best spent talking to customers and prospects. These discussions directly impact revenue, retention, product strategy, etc. So then I start thinking ... what sort of things am I doing that take me away from talking to customers? I spend a lot o…

Cool, thanks.

Re: The ‘white-collar bloodbath’ is all part of the AI hype machine

#992

I think the real white collar bloodbath is that the end of ZIRP was the end of infinite software job postings, and the start of layoffs. I think its easy to now point to AI, but it seems like a canard for the huge thing that already happened. just look at this: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=1JmOr In terms of magnitude the effect of this is just enormous and still being felt, and never recovered to pre-2020 lev…

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Re: The ‘white-collar bloodbath’ is all part of the AI hype machine

#993

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Keynes suggested that by 2030, we’d be working 15 hour workweeks, with the rest of the time used for leisure. Instead, we chose consumption, and helicopter money gave us bullshit jobs so we could keep buying more bullshit. This is fairly evident by the fact when the helicopter money runs out, all the bullshit jobs get cut. AI may give us more efficiency, but it will be filled with more bullshit jobs and consumption,…

Not to undercut your point - because you’re largely correct - but this is my reality. I have a decent-paying job in which I work roughly 15 hrs a week. Sometimes more when work scales up. That said, I’m not what you’d call a high-earning person (I earn < 100k) I simply live within my means and do my best to curb lifestyle creep. In this way, Keynes’ vision is a reality, but it’s a mindset and we also have to know whe…

I'm working hard on this one. I'm down to a three-day week, and am largely keeping the boundaries around those other four.

It came about late last year when the current employer started going getting gently waved off in early funding pitches. That resulted in some thrash, forced marches to show we could ship, and the attendant burnout for me and a good chunk of the team I managed. I took a hard look at where the company was and where I was, and decided I didn't have another big grind in me right now.

Rather than just quit like I probably would have previously, I laid it out to our CEO in terms of what I needed: more time taking care of my family and myself, less pressure to deliver impossible things, and some broad idea of what I could say "no" to. Instead of laughing in my face, he dug in, and we had a frank conversation about what I _was_ willing to sign up for. That in turn resulted in a (slow, still work-in-progress) transition where we hired a new engineering leader and I moved into a customer-facing role with no direct reports.

Now I to work a part-time schedule, so I can do random "unproductive" things like repair the dishwasher, chaperone the kid's field trip, or spend the afternoon helping my retired dad make a Costco run. I can reasonably stop and say, "I _could_ pay someone to do that for me, but I actually have time this week and I can just get it done" and sometimes I...actually do, which is kind of amazing?

...and it's still fucking hard to watch the big, interesting decisions and projects flow by with other people tackling them and not jump in and offer to help. B/c no matter what a dopamine ride that path can be, it also leads to late nights and weekends working and traveling and feeling shitty about being an absentee parent and partner.

Re: The ‘white-collar bloodbath’ is all part of the AI hype machine

#994
post #894

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As of now yes. But we are still in day 0.1 of GenAI. Do you think this will be the case when o3 models are 10x better and 100x cheaper? There will be a turning point but it’s not happened yet.

> 5 years into "AI will replace programmers in 6 months"? Programmers that don't use AI will get replaced by those that do. (no just by mandate, but by performance) > 10 years into "we'll have self driving cars next year" They're here now. Waymo does 250K paid rides/week.

How have you measured this performance boost?

Re: The ‘white-collar bloodbath’ is all part of the AI hype machine

#995

Imagine you had a crystal ball that lets you look 10 years into the future, and you asked it about whether we underestimate or overestimate how many jobs AI will replace in the future. It flickers for a moment, then it either says "In 2025, mankind vastly underestimated the amount of jobs AI can do in 2035" or "In 2025, mankind vastly overestimated the amount of jobs AI can do in 2035" How would you use that informat…

In that hypothetical case, you’d invest in the robot industry and security. The poor would try to eat the rich, right?

Re: The ‘white-collar bloodbath’ is all part of the AI hype machine

#996
post #964

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In all previous such revolutions, humans were freed to do more productive work while the cost of goods came down. But that doesn’t mean the same is true this time. Now the revolution does not make physical tasks easier (like ploughing or spinning thread) but intellectual labor. This time, there are no jobs to go to, since those jobs are also done by AI.

There are still interacting with other humans jobs.

So, prostitution? Bartender? There are still jobs now that require human interaction, but unless interacting with another human is the job itself, then, yes, those jobs are going. McDonalds already has kiosks for ordering. Yo Sushi has beer taps at your table. Young men are walking around having relationships with cute anime girls who listen and validate them (and how are they ever going to deal with an actual human female who has her own needs??). Others on HN are saying AI isn't good enough for this or that, but have you ever tried dealing with a real person in a call center, or a minimum wage employee at the job center, or a sales person at a cheap cosmetics counter. So sure, there are jobs at Chanel, or Audi, or Michelin starred restaurants, for the rich who can not only afford such luxury but enjoy lauding it over the rest of us, but for the rest of us there's Johnny Cab if we even have any way of paying for a ride in one.

Re: The ‘white-collar bloodbath’ is all part of the AI hype machine

#997
post #905

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Presumably the reduction to a 15 hour workweek would be much the same as the reduction to the 40 hour workweek - everyone takes the same reduction in total hours and increase in hourly compensation encoded in labor laws specifically so there isn't this tragedy of the commons.

Unless the law forbids working more than 15 hours per week, the numbers will shift around but the supply-demand market equilibrium will remain approximately the same. If minimum wage goes up 40/15 = 267%, then the price of your coffee will go up 267% because the coffeeshop owner needs to pay 267% more to keep the cafe staffed. The 40 hour work week is something a cultural equilibrium. But we've all heard of doctors,…

> Unless the law forbids working more than 15 hours per week, the numbers will shift around but the supply-demand market equilibrium will remain approximately the same.

Require anyone working over 15 hours to be paid time and a half overtime. If you want to hire one person to work 40 hours per week, that is 30% more expensive than hiring 3 people to work the same number of hours. In some select instances sure, having a single person do the job is worth the markup, and some people will be willing to work those hours, just like today you have some people working over 40, but in general the market will demand reduction in working hours.

Similarly, there is a strong incentive to work enough hours to be counted as a full time employee, so the marginal utility of that 35th hour is pretty high currently, whereas if full time benefits and labor protections started at 15 hours, then the marginal utility of that 35th hour would be substantially less.

> If minimum wage goes up 40/15 = 267%, then the price of your coffee will go up 267% because the coffeeshop owner needs to pay 267% more to keep the cafe staffed.

That would be true if 100% of the coffee shop's revenue went to wages. Obviously that's not the case. In reality, the shop is buying ingredients, paying rent for the space, paying off capex for the coffee making equipment, utilizing multiple business services like accounting and marketing, and hopefully at the end of the day making some profit. Realistically, wages for a coffee shop are probably 20-30% of revenue. So to cover the increased cost of labor, prices would have to rise 53%. Note that in this scenario you also have 267% more money to spend on coffee.

Of course there are some more nuances as prices in general inflate. Ultimately though, the equilibrium you reach is that people working minimum wage for a full workweek wind up able to afford 1 minimum-wage workweek worth of goods and services. This holds true in the long term regardless of what level minimum wage is or how long a workweek is. Indeed you could just as easily have everyone's wages stay exactly the same but we are all working less, then we all have less money and there is a deflationary effect but in the long term we wind up at the same situation. Ideally, you'd strike a balance between these two which reaches the same end state with a reasonably steady money supply.

> The 40 hour work week is something a cultural equilibrium.

No, it isn't. It is an arbitrary convention, one in a long series which had substantially different values in the past. It has remained constant because it is encoded in law in such a way that it is no longer subject to simple pressures of labor supply and demand.

> But we've all heard of doctors, lawyers, and bankers working 100h weeks which affords them some of the most desirable real estate in the world...

There are a lot more than just doctors and lawyers and bankers working long hours. 37% of americans work 2 full time jobs, and most of them aren't exactly in a position to afford extremely desirable real estate. If the workweek were in a equilibrium due to supply and demand, wouldn't these people just be working more hours at their regular jobs?

Re: The ‘white-collar bloodbath’ is all part of the AI hype machine

#999
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Excellent choice of words there: new standard. I'm sure we are, but it doesn't look like an improvement for most people.

Not yet at least, but there’s no stopping this kind of efficiency jump. Anyone who thinks otherwise is in denial.

There are also no indications that it's coming. Anyone who assumes so is delusional.

Re: The ‘white-collar bloodbath’ is all part of the AI hype machine

#1000
post #611

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yet we're what? 5 years into "AI will replace programmers in 6 months"? Realistically, we're 2.5 years into it at most.

No, the hype cycle started around 2019, slowly at first. The technology this is built with is more like 20 years old, so no, we are not 2.5 years at most really.

Neural networks go back a lot further than 20 years ago. It was considered a research dead end for a long time though.
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