Earlier quoted context omitted.
what do you mean you can only use fsd on motorways? Just by phrasing I assume you’re referring to the old FSD which is just beefed up autopilot based on heuristics - europe is stuck on a gimped 5 year old autopilot stack due to overzealous regulation. American FSD is a completely different beast, usable on every road and street, so your anecdote is actually not relevant to the thread
> Just by phrasing I assume you’re referring to the old FSD I find it very confusing with the multiple versions of FSD, Auto-pilot, enhanced Auto-Pilot, supervised etc, but yeah I'm in Europe. I got the car new from Tesla last year. I understood there are vastly more features in the American locale but I assumed the 'keep lane' ability to be on-par and given the hardware is the same, sun-glare performance.
US probes Tesla's Full Self-Driving software after fatal crash
991–1000 of 1001 posts
Re: US probes Tesla's Full Self-Driving software after fatal crash
#992Earlier quoted context omitted.
Prior to that, FSD was labeled ‘Full Self Driving (Beta)’ and enabling it triggered a modal that required two confirmations explaining that the human driver must always pay attention and is ultimately responsible for the vehicle. The feature also had/has active driver monitoring (via both vision and steering-torque sensors) that would disengage FSD if the driver ignored the loud audible alarm to “Pay attention”. Sinc…
The problem is not so much the lack of disclaimers, it is the adberitising. Tesla is asking for something like 15 000 dollars for access to this "beta", and you don't get two modal dialogs before you sign up for that. This is called "false advertising", and even worse - recognizing revenue on a feature you are not delivering (a beta is not a delivered feature) is not GAAP.
I agree; the entire advertising industry is well known to be misleading and/or dishonest; it’s annoying and often hurts consumers.
> Tesla is asking for something like 15 000 dollars for access to this "beta",
The cost of FSD is $8000 for the life of the vehicle, $5000 for 3 years (includes free supercharging and premium connectivity), or as a no-contract, a la carte option for $99/month—which IMO is pretty cheap if you just want to try it out or if you only want/need it during special occasions.
> and you don't get two modal dialogs before you sign up for that.
Depends on how you purchase FSD; if done from the vehicle, you get the dialogs. If done at the time of vehicle purchase you get plenty of disclaimers and documentation about its capabilities—though not as obviously prominent and scary as modal dialogs. I haven’t witnessed a subscription purchase so I’m not sure if the dialogs are present during the subscription process; perhaps that’s where the scam lies but I doubt it.
> This is called "false advertising", and even worse - recognizing revenue on a feature you are not delivering (a beta is not a delivered feature) is not GAAP.
Perhaps in your opinion but, well… that’s not how the world works, nor the law. For decades orgs have been delivering revenue-generating products, marketed and labeled as “beta”; a product being incomplete doesn’t mean it doesn’t have value. Heck, most of the software we use is ever changing and often considered a beta release—but they still (usually) offer value. Remember, FSD is software, not hardware; I suspect folks are uncomfortable with what appears to be the new paradigm of cars that change their capabilities over time even while they demand regular new capabilities in other products like their phone or computer.
For what it’s worth, here’s the FSD disclaimer currently present on the Tesla website:
“Full Self-Driving (Supervised)
Your car will be able to drive itself almost anywhere with minimal driver intervention.
Currently enabled features require active driver supervision and do not make the vehicle autonomous. The activation and use of these features are dependent on development and regulatory approval, which may take longer in some jurisdictions.”
Seems pretty clear to me.
Re: US probes Tesla's Full Self-Driving software after fatal crash
#993Earlier quoted context omitted.
Prior to that, FSD was labeled ‘Full Self Driving (Beta)’ and enabling it triggered a modal that required two confirmations explaining that the human driver must always pay attention and is ultimately responsible for the vehicle. The feature also had/has active driver monitoring (via both vision and steering-torque sensors) that would disengage FSD if the driver ignored the loud audible alarm to “Pay attention”. Sinc…
Do they have warnings as big as "full self driving" texts in advertisements? And if it is NOT actually full self driving, why call it full self driving? That's just false advertising. You can't get around that. I can't believe our current laws let Tesla get away like that.
Tesla doesn’t advertise; they rely entirely on word of mouth, storefronts (both online and physical), and publicity/news coverage. But the answer to your question is that, on their website at least, the text disclaimers for the FSD option are the same sizes as the disclaimers for other options like the Tow Package (the disclaimer for which says “Tow up to 3,500 lbs with a class II steel tow bar”) or the wheels (the disclaimer for which shows range estimates depending on the chosen wheel diameter).
> And if it is NOT actually full self driving, why call it full self driving?
To me, this is like asking why ISPs offer “Unlimited Data” plans that have very strict limits on what constitutes “unlimited”.
It’s important to remember that the phrase “Full Self Driving” has no legal or industry-standard definition. For the sake of this discussion, and as far as I’m aware, the FSD product has never been available for purchase or subscription without a parenthetical designation, e.g. “Full Self Driving (Beta)” or “Full Self Driving (Supervised)” which, to me, suggests Tesla is acting in good faith—well, at least as far as good-faith acts exist in our marketing-driven culture. It’s only been within the last year or so that Musk has talked about “Full Self Driving (Unsupervised)” which is, I believe, the designation for what will ultimately become the Level 4/5 autonomy product.
FSD is currently classified as Level 2 autonomy by SAE. While a Level 3 autonomy product is available in the US, it is: - only available in the Mercedes Drive Pilot product, - only available in CA or NV, - limited to 40mph on pre-approved roads, - only available during daylight/good weather conditions.
The difference between the real-world capabilities of Drive Pilot and FSD is quite stark; while FSD is not officially classified as Level 3 autonomy, it’s dramatically closer to what I believe most consumers would consider “autonomous driving” than is the Mercedes product. I only got to try it for a few days so it wasn’t a detailed comparison but my own experience with Mercedes product was disappointing when compared to Tesla’s product. IOW, while perhaps not semantically accurate, the product name “Full Self Driving” is far more accurate than any other available product offering.
> That's just false advertising. You can't get around that.
Product names are very rarely subject to scrutiny for being “false advertising”. Again, the phrase “Full Self Driving” has no legal or official definition. Should it have a legal definition? I don’t know, but I do know that the “Unlimited Data” plans from carriers and ISPs are widely understood not to be “unlimited”; I don’t love those kinds of product naming schemes but I’m not sure how the FSD case is any different from a legal perspective.
> I can't believe our current laws let Tesla get away like that.
Get away with what? IME, Tesla (and pretty much every org on the planet) carefully skirt the boundaries of the law. Sometimes, if they cross a legal boundary, they’ll become subject to investigation and possibly consequences but, in the case of FSD, the court has already dismissed the lawsuit claiming Tesla lied about its capabilities. They “get away like that” by not breaking the law. Until laws change, orgs will continue to be incredibly and often overly optimistic when discussing their products.
Re: US probes Tesla's Full Self-Driving software after fatal crash
#994For whatever it's worth, Teslas with Autopilot enabled crash about once every 4.5M miles driven, whereas the overall rate in the US is roughly one crash every 70K miles driven. Of course, the selection effects around that stat can be debated (people probably enable autopilot in situations that are safer than average, the average tesla owner might be driving more carefully or in safer areas than the average driver, et…
> Gaps in Tesla's telematic data create uncertainty regarding the actual rate at which vehicles operating with Autopilot engaged are involved in crashes. Tesla is not aware of every crash involving Autopilot even for severe crashes because of gaps in telematic reporting. Tesla receives telematic data from its vehicles, when appropriate cellular connectivity exists and the antenna is not damaged during a crash, that s…
Re: US probes Tesla's Full Self-Driving software after fatal crash
#995Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Just by phrasing I assume you’re referring to the old FSD I find it very confusing with the multiple versions of FSD, Auto-pilot, enhanced Auto-Pilot, supervised etc, but yeah I'm in Europe. I got the car new from Tesla last year. I understood there are vastly more features in the American locale but I assumed the 'keep lane' ability to be on-par and given the hardware is the same, sun-glare performance.
no it uses very different technologies. Europe was gonna get an update in Q1 but they chose to over regulate it again so idk now.
Re: US probes Tesla's Full Self-Driving software after fatal crash
#996Earlier quoted context omitted.
Direct payments do seem to be illegal in a way that having a rally or concert or canvassing are not. https://electionlawblog.org/?p=146397
You’re not obligated to do anything like vote or vote a certain way. Money is speech and it’s an advertisement. That’s just some random blog. I’m sure Musks’s lawyers understand what they’re doing. Frankly I find it inspiring he cares enough about our democracy to encourage people to participate in it at great expense of his own. You love to see innovation in turning out voters who may not otherwise have their voices…
Re: US probes Tesla's Full Self-Driving software after fatal crash
#997Earlier quoted context omitted.
You slowly build a relationship with it and understand where it will fail. I drive my 20-30 minute commutes largely with FSD, as well as our 8-10 hour road trips. It works great, but 100% needs to be supervised and is basically just nicer cruise control.
When an update comes out does that relationship get reset (does it start failing on things that used to work), or has it been a uniform upward march? I'm thinking of how every SaaS product I ever have to use regularly breaks my workflow to make 'improvements'.
Re: US probes Tesla's Full Self-Driving software after fatal crash
#998Earlier quoted context omitted.
When an update comes out does that relationship get reset (does it start failing on things that used to work), or has it been a uniform upward march? I'm thinking of how every SaaS product I ever have to use regularly breaks my workflow to make 'improvements'.
I wouldn't take OP's word for it, if they really believe they know how it's going to react in every situation in the first place. Studies have shown this is a gross overestimation of their own ability to pay attention.
Re: US probes Tesla's Full Self-Driving software after fatal crash
#999Earlier quoted context omitted.
no it uses very different technologies. Europe was gonna get an update in Q1 but they chose to over regulate it again so idk now.
Given that Tesla are under investigation by the U.S. auto safety regulator, I don't think you can say it's 'over regulation' yet.
Re: US probes Tesla's Full Self-Driving software after fatal crash
#1000I drive a 2024 Tesla Model Y and another person in my family drives a 2021 Model Y. Both cars are substantially similar (the 2021 actually has more sensors than the 2024, which is strictly cameras-only). Both cars are running 12.5 -- and I agree that it's dramatically improved over 12.3. I really enjoy driving. I've got a #vanlife Sprinter that I'll do 14 hour roadtrips in with my kids. For me, the Tesla's self-drivi…