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Beyond Meat is struggling, and the plant-based meat industry worries

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Re: Beyond Meat is struggling, and the plant-based meat industry worries

#991

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> They are still pretty trashy This is a qualitative/irrational assessment and not a quantitative/rational one, especially considering that fat consumption got a wrongfully-deserved bad rap for decades thanks to unethical lobbying by the sugar industry.

For years I’ve spent a lot of time (probably more than I should) crawling through research about exactly this, which is precisely why I use the term trashy. Relatively speaking I suppose it’s better than many other options, which is relevant to some people. In the broader scope, this is still junk food. I’d argue (based on the best dietary research the world has produced) that saturated fats do deserve a bad rap, and…

thanks for the interesting thoughts.

diet is a fairly complex topic and it's a shame that most doctors don't get more than a single course in nutrition. I read a paper like this (which is related to our discussion) and the raw complexity is just... difficult to boil down into a variety of good food choices sometimes: https://openheart.bmj.com/content/5/2/e000871

Re: Beyond Meat is struggling, and the plant-based meat industry worries

#992

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Theoretically, you are right, of course. In practice though, to apply this, you would need to know how the processing exactly works, and how the body responds to that processing. Given that you can not really determine this easily, it is in practice just simpler to stick to unprocessed foods as much as possible, and just apply the sugar limit to those.

I don't think this makes a lot of sense. Cheese is cooked, fermented, emulsified, and aged. It has a lower glycemic impact than milk, its primary unprocessed input. Mostly, I think the "processed" vs. "unprocessed" debate is an appeal to tradition, not science; if it's a kind of processing we were doing 200 years ago, it's OK; otherwise, it's unhealthful.

I would say that Cheese, at least its classic variants, fall exactly under the category where you have fairly good knowledge of the nature of its processing and its effects on the body. I'd say your example supports my argument.

Re: Beyond Meat is struggling, and the plant-based meat industry worries

#993

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, some people of every ilk are likely to be uninformed about some aspect of the world or the other. How does that apply in the current context? Most meals for most people worldwide are essentially vegetarian, even if the people are not obligate vegetarians. Are there some vegetarians unfamiliar with the reality of practically all world cuisines? Sure - and? Impossible meats aren't directed towards these people, a…

> Sure, some people of every ilk are likely to be uninformed about some aspect of the world or the other I am absolutely not claiming that, I am absolutely claiming that beliefs based on feelings and not hard truths tend to reject rational arguments, hence their members are usually not the most curious people around and it's common they ignore things that are obvious to the rest of us. Take a western vegetarian, we a…

I think you're conflating the median North American vegetarian with the median vegan. Your comment makes a lot more sense if I substitute "vegan" for wherever you've used "vegetarian". If you do indeed mean "vegetarian", then I think it makes much less sense in contemporary America, for example.

Yes, almost every vegan I've known is optimizing to minimize animal "cruelty", defined on their own ideological terms. Meanwhile, almost every vegetarian I've known is either one for religious reasons (and have their tradition's cultural cuisines to draw from) or simply don't like meat. I also know many Muslims who avoid meat at restaurants since it's not halal. I am struggling to recall any vegetarians that eat an average American diet by simply replacing meat with something like tofu.

If your intent is indeed to refer to vegetarians, I think that hasn't been the case in the US since perhaps the 90s. American vegetarianism really took off in the cultural context of the 60s and 70s, where Eastern ideas & sensibilities were imported but not the people or their cuisines. If a median American in the 70s wanted to maintain a meat free diet, their options were genuinely restricted. That's certainly not the case now, where the median American vegetarian is likely of recent immigrant descent, and has their heritage cuisine to inspire vegetarian meals. Changes to American immigration policy and the segment of countries where immigrants have come from have changed American vegetarianism. I also think something like Impossible burgers have very little appeal to the median vegetarian, since they're not interested in the taste of meat to begin with.

Yes, unlike the median American vegetarian, the median American vegan tends to appear spontaneously among families that are not themselves vegan. Unlike vegetarians, they don't have a rich family tradition to draw from, and plenty learn to just wing it. That said, I do think even this is likely not the case anymore. Today, in any big city, good vegan/vegetarian food is easy to find. As an illustrative example, I asked a relative who's lived in NYC for 40 years what his favorite restaurant meal has been (he absolutely loves steak). His favorite restaurant is a vegan Korean BBQ. Similarly, I've been informed by Mexicans of an amazing Mexican vegan place in Brooklyn.

Re: Beyond Meat is struggling, and the plant-based meat industry worries

#994
post #601

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I was wondering this the other day when eating a saag paneer curry instead of my normal meat-based order: why would anyone go through the motions to have fake chicken when you have multitudes of vegetarian options which can be treated similarly to how we treat meat in cooking. Paneer is not 'trying to be chicken', but it can be put in a curry or fried, so can serve a similar purpose -- but is distinctly delicious in…

>why would anyone go through the motions to have fake chicken when you have multitudes of vegetarian options Because meat tastes better, and I want it. If I can have that taste without an animal involved then it’s all the better. If not then I’ll continue eating meat. Vegetarians and vegans just don’t seem to understand this. Food is all about personal preference but the extreme majority of people eat and enjoy meat.…

I'm not a vegetarian and I have a taste preference for meat on many dishes.

Re: Beyond Meat is struggling, and the plant-based meat industry worries

#995
post #601

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was wondering this the other day when eating a saag paneer curry instead of my normal meat-based order: why would anyone go through the motions to have fake chicken when you have multitudes of vegetarian options which can be treated similarly to how we treat meat in cooking. Paneer is not 'trying to be chicken', but it can be put in a curry or fried, so can serve a similar purpose -- but is distinctly delicious in…

Because our culinary repertoire and tastes are cultural. People know how to pan fry up some chicken/beef, this their fake analogs too, but not how to make saag paneer curry. Or some pan fried chicken is what they crave while they’ve never had these foods you consider superior. Our relationship with food is very weird and delicate. It’s more of an identity trait than a rational choice we make daily. We like our comfor…

Thanks for sharing, that's a good point!

Re: Beyond Meat is struggling, and the plant-based meat industry worries

#996

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That has to be temporary and due to novelty. I’ve never understood the “pretend meat” category. Lots of vegetarian food tastes amazing and is good for you. It doesn’t have to pretend. It’s like over-boiling broccoli and covering it in cheese sauce: easier for broccoli-haters to eat, but totally missing the point.

Some of us actually like the meat taste, and this is orthogonal to the ethics of it.

Yes, but what’s the altruistic benefit in marketing fake meat to you?

Re: Beyond Meat is struggling, and the plant-based meat industry worries

#997

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I don't think any of the sources you mentioned here actually justify animal agriculture on the grounds of causing less death, though. The first two sources aren't specific to agriculture specific to human consumption, just agriculture in general. Also, whether or not global livestock is primarily fed on human consumable crops isn't the issue. For example, a very large portion of the feed mentioned in one of your sour…

> I think you'd need to have sources that prove that specifically crops grown for human consumption I think you don't understand the issue. Vegetarians (and vegans) don't kill less animals, they simply don't eat them (or at least that's what they say...) > The point is that all those things could still be coming from crops The point is that eating meat, unless you are from the US, does not mean you're killing billion…

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Re: Beyond Meat is struggling, and the plant-based meat industry worries

#998

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some of us actually like the meat taste, and this is orthogonal to the ethics of it.

Yes, but what’s the altruistic benefit in marketing fake meat to you?

Why should I care? I just want my guilt-free meat.

Re: Beyond Meat is struggling, and the plant-based meat industry worries

#999

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> black bean burgers and other home-made options not only taste way better A lot of people making this kind of point, but it's subjective and you have no idea if you're in a majority or not in your preferences.

If you have a home-made option that is built-to-taste, how can anything else be better? It’s tailor made for each individual. Hence “… and other home-made options.” Whereas, a factory made thing is mass-produced and has to target the lowest-common-denominator.

Not everyone is good at cooking.

Re: Beyond Meat is struggling, and the plant-based meat industry worries

#1000

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the UK that's rarely the case. The veg options are usually the same price as the meat. In some places. At Gourmet Burger Kitchen the Beyond Meat cheeseburger costs 30% more than its beef counterpart. https://gbk.co.uk/menu Clearly just one example but it's rare the veg option's cheaper.

The point being made was that these fake meat patties are more expensive, whereas the old vegetarian options were cheaper or bottom priced. I've been a vegetarian for nine years. It becomes noticeable when your meal jumps 50% in price and goes from being the cheapest in a group to the most expensive.

But in the UK the burgers made of veg are at least as expensive as their meat counterparts. On the menu I posted the bean burger is 50p more expensive than beef.
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