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A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

economist.com

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Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#991

Post by dmje »

nec4b wrote: post #981
Tainnor wrote: post #973

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hope you're aware that "left wing" doesn't mean "socialist" or "communist" and that plenty of liberal democracies have had social democratic parties in power for some period or another without there being any breakdown in tolerance to opposing viewpoints.

Of course it also means socialists and communists among other leftist parties. They represent the pure leftist ideology from which other leftist parties take ideas from, and the closer to center those parties are the more they tone the communistic ideals down. In essence the tip of the left wing is completely intolerable and illiberal.

Your point doesn't really work, if it is "at the heart of any left wing moderate is a left wing fringe lunatic" because obviously you could just claim the same of the right, and suggest that every moderate right wing has fascism at its core. This sort of reductionism ends up with nothing useful.

Both right and left approach a similar looking set of ideologies at their extremes. I'm arguing that the left runs the risk of being overrun by something that moderate liberal lefties like me should be very concerned about.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#992

Post by aliasEli »

nec4b wrote: post #926
dmje wrote: post #637

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Couldn't agree more. The airtime on this topic is insane. People's email signatures filled with their pronouns. The anger. The division. I get it's an emotive conversation but then so are gay rights, gender rights, race rights, democratic rights, inequality, and about a gazillion other topics. That's not belittling trans as an issue, but it's so incredibly noisy. IMO the wider question here is nothing to do with tran…

"I'm as left wing as they come, but being left wing means being able to have open, honest and sometimes uncomfortable debates. Being left wing is not, and never has been, about shutting down conversation, de-platforming, dogma, chilling effects. These are the things of the hard right, and the sooner people on the left start realising it and start being empowered to be vocal in defence of the freedom of ideas, the bet…

Most countries in Western Europe have/had socialist and communist parties, that have been pretty tolerant to opposing views. Most US citizen have very strange ideas about socialism.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#993

Post by kenjackson »

Spivak wrote: post #759
kenjackson wrote: post #489

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Personally I don't think this is very important compared to other topics. There are more blind people than trans people. There are more people with Alzheimer's than trans people. There are more people in the US who have lost a limb than trans people. It's not impactful in terms of the number of people, but its a civil rights issue for those on the left. And for those on the right its just one more group trying to c…

Sports fairness is basically a transphobe dogwhistle at this point. Major athletic organizations already have policies in place that say that trans women can’t compete unless x,y,z criteria are met which is typically a minimum number of years on HRT and T levels not more than something. The issue is that there is a trade-off being made here. A trans woman athlete likely has a better bone structure than the average ci…

What about basketball as another example. Height is probably the single most important physical attribute of the game and the height advantage men have is overwhelming. HRT after puberty has no impact on height.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#994

Post by Spivak »

kenjackson wrote: post #993
Spivak wrote: post #759

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sports fairness is basically a transphobe dogwhistle at this point. Major athletic organizations already have policies in place that say that trans women can’t compete unless x,y,z criteria are met which is typically a minimum number of years on HRT and T levels not more than something. The issue is that there is a trade-off being made here. A trans woman athlete likely has a better bone structure than the average ci…

What about basketball as another example. Height is probably the single most important physical attribute of the game and the height advantage men have is overwhelming. HRT after puberty has no impact on height.

And in that situation you may have very real case for saying that women over a certain height shouldn't be allowed to play women's basketball. That's fine, it's really no different than weight classes in wrestling. But then a trans woman who is of average height for a female basketball player shouldn't be barred from playing.

However, the WNBA sports so many women who are 6'+ (tall people play basketball, go figure) with the tallest player ever being 7'2" so the range of heights of women is pretty broad.

You seem to not be taking into account that fact that on average trans women will be taller than cis women, not that every trans woman is taller than every cis woman. And when talking about a sport that naturally selects for people who are outliers in height a trans woman being 5'7 (taller than the average woman) will be one of the shorter players.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#995

Post by kenjackson »

Spivak wrote: post #994
kenjackson wrote: post #993

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about basketball as another example. Height is probably the single most important physical attribute of the game and the height advantage men have is overwhelming. HRT after puberty has no impact on height.

And in that situation you may have very real case for saying that women over a certain height shouldn't be allowed to play women's basketball. That's fine, it's really no different than weight classes in wrestling. But then a trans woman who is of average height for a female basketball player shouldn't be barred from playing. However , the WNBA sports so many women who are 6'+ (tall people play basketball, go figure)…

Even if you capped height, to say 6'8", you will still see likely eventually see trans women dominating the sport.

You seem to not be taking into account that fact that on average trans women will be taller than cis women, not that every trans woman is taller than every cis woman.

No, I am taking that into account. Because of how dominant height is in basketball, you rarely see men in the NBA at 5'9" (the average height for a man in the US). Probably less than .5% of the NBA is that height or less.

So in women's basketball what this means, even if you cap the height, you will see the average height in the league grow because of the addition of trans women. 6'3" point guards will become the norm -- as of today I don't think a single 6'3" PG exists in the WNBA. And almost all of the eventual 6'3" PGs will be trans women.

Whereever you cap the height -- that height will be dominated by transwomen.

The only way to really blunt the impact is to cap the height so low that there is a substantial pool of top talent from transwomen and cis. Something like 6'. But that ends up now drastically hurting a bunch of cis women who are tall and prior to this, this being the preferred sport for them. And the WNBA already has issues with popularity and comparisons to the mens game (although I perosonally really enjoy womens basketball) -- if they capped the height to 6', that just makes the problem worse.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#996

Post by RhodoGSA »

throwaway284534 wrote: post #36

There’s a lot that’s already been said in this topic but I feel compelled to bring up the damage imposed by TERF talking points. The conversation goes something like this: “Transgender women possess an innate maleness that carries a non-zero threat to female spaces.” They believe that dictionary definitions of woman are prescriptive, declared at the chromosomes during birth, rather than descriptive, as in how one pre…

Being trans is a personal philosophy. You may argue that the 'feeling' is innate, but must make major changes to your outside appearance/ biology / defy culture norms.

With that being said, defying cultural norms is a good thing but you can't force me to accept your reality. I have to option to have a difference in opinion than you. If i accidentally say sir, instead of mrs you can't cancel me because of it.

I don't claim to be a moral precept but what i do offer you A peace treaty. You can live your life in a way that is pleasing to you but you cannot force other people to accept your beliefs no matter how much scientific or cultural backing it may have. if the local womens book club doesn't want a dude who 'Claims' to be a women in their book club but can obviously still see he's a man, that's okay. It's not discrimination, it's difference in opinion and that is okay.

edit: Deleted a paragraph discussing sports. I think it mainly took away from my argument rather than helped it.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#998

Post by inkblotuniverse »

mvkel wrote: post #972
drenvuk wrote: post #268

Can someone please tell me how important this topic based on the amount of news time and eyeballs it attracts relative to the number of people that it affects? The numbers I can find for US citizens is: 0.6% or 1,988,696 out 331,449,281 of people total for the entirety of the US in 2021. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_demographics_of_the_Unite... In the UK where the featured article took place the latest poll I…

Does it matter, or make the cause any less noble? A minority group, by definition, has no power. It needs the majority to speak for them. So regardless of how small a number they represent, scaling the conversation up is required.

So the 1% don't have power? Or aren't a minority?

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#999

Post by f38zf5vdt »

CRConrad wrote: post #942
f38zf5vdt wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a visible minority because of my race, I wish I had the option. I just try to avoid meat space.

Heh... So, if you've had the option to WFH, the pandemic has been more if a blessing than a curse?

Yes, it has been great.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#1000

Post by tabtab »

jpttsn wrote: post #525
tabtab wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect you are confusing using characteristics to correct for existing bias versus using characteristics for discrimination itself. Specific scenarios may help us explore this better.

Okay, how about Michael Jackson’s ”Black or White?” Is this scenario “correcting for existing bias” or “discrimination itself?”

What specific part, or what's your interpretation of the general message?
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