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The lab-leak theory: inside the fight to uncover Covid-19’s origins

vanityfair.com

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Re: The lab-leak theory: inside the fight to uncover Covid-19’s origins

#991
post #959

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Citation provided, and this is just a tiny fraction of the censorship that was unleashed on this topic: https://www.wsj.com/articles/facebook-ends-ban-on-posts-asse...

Zero references of any users suspended or banned in your linked source. Posts were removed for 'Asserting Covid-19 Was Man-Made' which is very different from discussing the possibility and calling for further investigation. > Facebook in February began the ban on claims the virus was man-made or manufactured as part of a list of misleading health claims that aren’t allowed. During that period with the widespread dang…

[deleted]

Re: The lab-leak theory: inside the fight to uncover Covid-19’s origins

#992
post #977

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is even more shocking is that the mass media and big tech have done everything to keep this covered. Most of the revelations are nothing new if you read alternative news sources where true journalism still exists. Big tech and mass media are now more like China state television, they decide what and how to tell you something based on what they want you to believe. The greatest threat of our times is not the Coro…

Which alternative news sites do you read?

Zerohedge.com , take it with a pinch of salt, but it is ahead of the curve time and time again.

Re: The lab-leak theory: inside the fight to uncover Covid-19’s origins

#993
post #2

This is the most shocking article I have ever read in my life. I'd ask everyone to please read it because it is incredible. One thing I did not realize is that US researchers who conducted gain of function research tried to downplay and discredit the possibility of the virus originating from the wuhan lab. There was an anti-lab theory Lancet statement signed by scientists, and "Daszak had not only signed but organize…

To me, the only really horrible thing is the way that anything other than the mainstream version of events was treated. I think there are different plausible theories, and I'm not surprised they have different adherents that are mostly all motivated by something other than a pure quest for the truth. That's life. If this was e.g. a civil or criminal trial, you'd see the same thing. The only difference is, in a trial,…

> To me, that's the only thing that's new, is the institutional suppression of any suggestions outside of an orthodox version.

This isn't new at all. It's been a staple of many human cultures throughout history, including US culture for much of the 20th century (and, I would say, all of the 21st century). I think what's probably a new experience for most of us is just how all-encompassing the pandemic has been as an issue of discussion.

Re: The lab-leak theory: inside the fight to uncover Covid-19’s origins

#994

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No new evidence for natural origin has come to light. It remains pure speculation, just as it always has been, and you are making an isolated demand for rigor. If you read the Nicholas Wade article, the PLOS blog, or even this article, you will know the evidence is not pointing in any one direction at the moment, but there is solid evidence of a cover-up and blame shifting by the Chinese government and the virology /…

> No new evidence for natural origin has come to light. It remains pure speculation, just as it always has been, and you are making an isolated demand for rigor. This is an absurd equivalence. Viruses spill over from nature all the time. There are millions of people coming into contact every day with animal populations that harbor myriad SARS-related coronaviruses. Every known novel virus that has entered the human p…

> Viruses spill over from nature all the time.

Right. And so too do viruses not uncommonly spill over from labs into the public. SARS1 escaped the lab four times. Pandemic flu is thought to have escaped once.

> it is appalling that an article by someone who does not understand the subject they are writing about

In that case, a point by point rebuttal should be written by people who do know what they are writing about. The ad hominem isn't really persuasive.

> There is no evidence at all of a cover-up of a lab leak.

I did not refer to a cover-up of a lab leak. I referred to a cover-up of something, which may be a lab leak. There is certainly no denying that there is a cover-up:

1. WIV removed their virus database from the web on Sept 19, 2019, and their staff/student bios from the web in late Jan 2020.

2. China has mandated that all papers concerning Covid-19 be approved by the government before publication since Feb 2020.

3. Access of investigators to the WIV has been blocked. Free staff interviews with foreign investogators have not been permitted.

4. Statements made by the Shi lab are mutually inconsistent in their details.

5. The US gain of function establishment has pre-emptively sought to associate any talk of lab leaks with social stigma and conspiracy theories.

All these are detailed in the Vanity Fair article which started this comment chain. Thanks for revealing that you didn't read it.

Re: The lab-leak theory: inside the fight to uncover Covid-19’s origins

#995

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Haha. No. It’s because of politics and TDS. People were taught that this was a Trump theory. That’s all the media needs to say to ensure that nobody will take it seriously and nobody will tolerate anyone else who takes it seriously.

This is a totally fair reaction to all "trump theories".

No post body was provided.

Re: The lab-leak theory: inside the fight to uncover Covid-19’s origins

#996

Ok so…China infected the President of the United States with a bio weapon? And we are going to do what about it?

TFA doesn’t call Sars-Cov-2 a bioweapon. Sloppy lab practices on virus research is all it takes to have a lab leak.

to suggest that gain of function research is not in service to bio weapon development is tantamount to suggesting the United States went to the moon purely for scientific purposes

Re: The lab-leak theory: inside the fight to uncover Covid-19’s origins

#997
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It gets worse - gain of function research was banned under Obama until the ban was lifted in 2017 under Trump - https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3... I can’t find sources for this right now but apparently Dr Anthony Fauci played a key role in getting the ban lifted. He’s also the head of the NIAID ( https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_Fauci ) which (apparently) is the ultimate source for…

You are getting downvoted because it's muckraking. There is nothing shady about NIAID giving a (verrrry small for this type of research) grant to a foreign research lab, which is doing research about a topic of interest. That's how you ensure the U.S. government gets a copy of the results.

Since when has muckraking taken a pejorative meaning - especially one that would justify somebody’s downvote. The early 20th century muckrakers enabled much-needed and widespread reform.

Re: The lab-leak theory: inside the fight to uncover Covid-19’s origins

#998

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No new evidence for natural origin has come to light. It remains pure speculation, just as it always has been, and you are making an isolated demand for rigor. This is an absurd equivalence. Viruses spill over from nature all the time. There are millions of people coming into contact every day with animal populations that harbor myriad SARS-related coronaviruses. Every known novel virus that has entered the human p…

> Viruses spill over from nature all the time. Right. And so too do viruses not uncommonly spill over from labs into the public. SARS1 escaped the lab four times. Pandemic flu is thought to have escaped once. > it is appalling that an article by someone who does not understand the subject they are writing about In that case, a point by point rebuttal should be written by people who do know what they are writing about…

> Right. And so too do viruses not uncommonly spill over from labs into the public. SARS1 escaped the lab four times. Pandemic flu is thought to have escaped once.

No novel virus has ever spilled over from a lab. Every novel virus in history has been a zoonosis.

The only lab escapes were of existing, highly infectious viruses that were being intensively studied, cultured in large quantities, etc. Such escapes are rare, and there are very good systems in place to detect them. The Wuhan Institute of Virology regularly tests its workers for antibodies against various viruses (including coronaviruses), and the workers are negative for SARS-CoV-2. The pandemic flu you're talking about was likely the result of a large-scale vaccine study, not a lab leak.

There is no sign that anyone knew of SARS-CoV-2 before the outbreak, much less that any lab was working with it. There is, on the contrary, good evidence that it was not known about. The WIV never published the genome of SARS-CoV-2 before the outbreak, in contrast to other related coronaviruses (for example RaTG13 was published in 2016, and the WIV has never even isolated it - it exists purely as RNA fragments and data on a hard drive). The set of coronaviruses that the WIV works with are publicly known, and SARS-CoV-2 is not among those worked with pre-2020.

> The ad hominem isn't really persuasive.

If a person who clearly does not know anything about programming writes a long screed about programming, filled with basic errors that illustrate that the person does not understand basic programming concepts, it's not ad hominem to point out that the person doesn't know anything about programming. The question is why the media is hyping an article by someone who doesn't understand basic virology.

> WIV removed their virus database from the web on Sept 19, 2019

This part of the conspiracy theory requires the WIV to have known about a lab leak in September 2019. That really is stretching any sort of plausibility. This database was only online for a few months in the first place, and they say that they took it down because it was insecure. The alternative explanation that the conspiracy theorists are pushing - that the WIV knew about a lab leak months before anyone in China showed any sign whatsoever of reacting to the outbreak - is just not plausible.

> their staff/student bios from the web in late Jan 2020.

I don't know what bios you're talking about. However, there was a conspiracy theory about a postdoc who left the lab in 2015, whose picture was "missing" from the website. Based on this, internet conspiracy theorists jumped to the conclusion that she was patient zero, that she had been secretly cremated, and all sorts of other nonsense. The obvious explanation is that she left the lab years ago, and that for whatever reason, nobody has bothered to put her picture up on the website.

> Access of investigators to the WIV has been blocked. Free staff interviews with foreign investogators have not been permitted.

This is false. The WHO team was given full access to the lab, and interviewed many of the staff. They got detailed information about all the coronavirus research at the lab.

> The US gain of function establishment has pre-emptively sought to associate any talk of lab leaks with social stigma and conspiracy theories.

I don't know what the "gain of function establishment" is. Virologists generally view the lab leak as extremely unlikely and completely unsupported by evidence. Some virologists do what might be characterized as "gain-of-function" research. Does that make them the "gain of function establishment"? There isn't some big conspiracy to shut down truth-tellers. There are experts who are annoyed that an extremely unlikely theory that is unsupported by any evidence is being hyped by non-experts who don't know what they're talking about.

Re: The lab-leak theory: inside the fight to uncover Covid-19’s origins

#999

When Trump himself floated the lab-leak hypothesis last April, his divisiveness and lack of credibility made things more, not less, challenging for those seeking the truth. Right, it's Trump's fault that the media and political opposition acted like children in opposing every word that came out of his mouth. Apply that logic to your favorite left-leaning politician: "The fact that Obama was always a natural born citi…

> Right, it's Trump's fault that the media and political opposition acted like children in opposing every word that came out of his mouth.

In 2020?!? By then, "acting like children" would have been not to doubt every single word from Über-liar Trump.

Re: The lab-leak theory: inside the fight to uncover Covid-19’s origins

#1000
post #848

Of course, there is still another “conspiracy theory” that was dismissed out of hand without any real investigation due to the immense ideological cost of even acknowledging it could be true. It’s still not even safe to suggest publicly, and, unlike the lab leak theory, it will almost certainly stay in the box given the catastrophic consequences if it were investigated properly and shockingly confirmed.

Cute hinting around the bush.

You obviously want to spread it, so do.

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