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US agencies call for pause in Johnson & Johnson vaccine

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Re: US agencies call for pause in Johnson & Johnson vaccine

#991

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Los Angeles Times wrote an excellent article about the Johnson & Johnson (J&J) vaccine situation, in layman's terms [1]. However, journalists need to stop calling it "blood clots" or "rare blood clots", and instead call it a "rare clotting syndrome" that is "novel (new) and previously unclassified". For the AstraZeneca (AZ) vaccine situation, there has also been other good journalism sources here [2][3]. Pay atte…

Can you share some experiences with healthcare and the healthcare payment system in Croatia? I think we would all be fascinated to hear first hand accounts from someone who's also experienced the abysmal US system. What does your immunoglobulin cost in Croatia?

I'm not the original poster but I'm from Croatia. I've been living in the US for around 10 years now and have a chronic illness that required constant management: Type 1 Diabetes.

I also have a separate issue, Pectus Excavatum, a chest deformity that required me to undertake a fairly difficult surgery called the Nuss Procedure.

I think these two examples do a good job at demonstrating differences between Croatian an US healthcare payment systems. They are very different medical problems.

Diabetes is a chronic illness that requires constant management. I need to inject insulin multiple times a day and require other supplies such as sugar sensors, lancets, needles, and glucose strips. I have a brother who still lives in Croatia and also has Diabetes Type 1. Our treatment plans are almost identical. We take the same medications and need the same supplies.

Managing Diabetes in the US is fairly annoying and expensive. I'm lucky to work in tech which provides me with good pay and insurance but even then my expenses can go up to $200/mo. It is also difficult, sometimes impossible, to get insurance authorization for better insulins that are widely available in Europe. I am on Humalog, or sometimes Novolog, similar insulins but insurance companies only cover a single one, so you have to switch when you change insurances. Newer insulins such as Fiasp, Apidra, or Tresiba, which are newer, quicker to work, and overall "better" are almost impossible to get in the US. I tried multiple times and the insurance never gave me the authorization to use them.

My brother lives in Zagreb, Croatia. He's been a diabetic all of his life. He's using newer insulins such as Fiasp and Tresiba and he doesn't pay anything for them. Literally 0. It's completely covered by the National Insurance. Same goes for all of the supplies like strips and needles, and glucose sensors (which can be pretty expensive in the US). In total he pays $0.00 on diabetes management.

In addition, Diabetes education is terrible in the US. Doctors here will usually tell me that I can eat whatever I want as long as I cover it with enough insulin. This is just awful advice since people are not computers and will never calculate the correct dosage of insulin they need to cover every meal; resulting in bad sugar management and complications that come with it: blindness, limb amputation, and eventually death.

The ONLY way to properly manage diabetes is to be very careful about eating carbs. Not necessarily eliminate them, but come as close to it as possible. This is the way diabetes education works in Croatia. Fix the diet and then use insulin to fix what you can't fix with diet. The result is way better sugar management, and way cheaper treatments. Just the other week I had my checkup here in the US and the doctor told me my blood sugars are "too LOW for a diabetic" (my A1c was 5.9% - still higher than the normal 5.5% for a healthy person). I should change my diet and eat more carbs to raise it up. This is just awful, awful advice and I'm sure it's the result of generally terrible diet in the US.

So overall, healthcare treatment and payment for a chronic illness like Diabetes is just immeasurably better in Croatia. It's not even a contest.

Now, on the other hand.

Pectus Excavatum is a bone deformity. In some cases it's small enough to not present any problems but if it's fairly severe it can cause a lot of cardiovascular issues. Nuss procedure involves implanting multiple steel bars (3 in my case) behind the chest wall in order to force the chest bone out. The bars stay in the body for 3 years and are then removed. Surgery is usually successful and after the bars are removed you are considered "cured". There is nothing more to manage and the rate of complications is very low.

This surgery is complicated. It's most often done on children because it becomes much more difficult to perform it in adults. Video if interested: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8SrRzJqbJ8

As an adult, it's almost impossible to get the surgery performed in Europe. I know there's a center in Italy, and another Netherlands that do perform it, but their rate of success is not great. I've seen a lot of people complain about the results. The place to do it is the United States. Mayo Clinic in Arizona has the absolute world expert on Nuss Procedure and she does surgeries on adult of up to 40ish years of age (I got in at 37, last chance). Her work is absolutely phenomenal and people from all over the world travel to Arizona to do it there. There are also hospitals in Missouri I think and in New Jersey that do it, but I'm less familiar with them.

Now given that there are only a handful of places in the world that perform this surgery on adults, you'd think that the cost of this procedure would be astronomical. In total I paid around $2000 out of pocket. Without insurance it costs around $30k, plus $10k or so for the hospital bed (oh US). Don't get me wrong, it's not cheap, but for something of such difficulty and expertise I expected it to be way more expensive. It's literally impossible to get in most of the world other than the US and it costs less than the price of diabetes supplies for 1 year.

So there you have it. In my opinion the US system is absolutely awful for managing chronic conditions. It's made to exploit you for as much money as possible and even give you bad medical advice that makes sure you're going to need those expensive supplies. On the other hand, the most difficult procedures in the world are sometimes only available in the US, and the price of those is not nearly as high as you'd expect it to be. It's great for acute treatable conditions, and absolutely awful for chronic conditions that require constant management.

Re: US agencies call for pause in Johnson & Johnson vaccine

#992
post #768

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I went to the emergency room for earth shattering headaches (no history of headaches like this) after getting the J&J vaccine last week. I mentioned I’d got the vaccine and asked if it was possible the two were linked. The doctor did everything but actually roll his eyes and thought that the headache being caused by the vaccine was ridiculous. I bet if I went today he wouldn’t be so dismissive.

Did you have a blood clot? Temporal proximity doesn't necessarily mean "cause", usually just a coincidence.

I did not, thankfully. I went to a follow up appointment and it seems there are several potential causes so I’m working on figuring out proper therapy with my doctor.

Re: US agencies call for pause in Johnson & Johnson vaccine

#993
post #921

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The 6 are only those we know of. There could be others, because these cerebral blood clots can happen two weeks after receiving the vaccine. As we analyze the data, and see if more data comes in the next two weeks, we'll have a better sense of the risk.

How many would there need to be in order to justify proceeding to use the vaccine? Proclaiming that there could be others is worthless without quantifying what you're willing to accept. Just saying to wait is a decision that will kill people.

> Proclaiming that there could be others is worthless without quantifying what you're willing to accept.

If it can be isolated to certain groups, then those groups could be offered alternatives. The UK did something like that, and it worked well for them. It's not just about an overall number - it's about how effectively this risk can be reduced.

> Just saying to wait is a decision that will kill people.

J&J was a very small proportion of vaccines. There is plenty of extra supply from Moderna and Pfizer in the US, so you'll need a citation that this will kill people.

Re: US agencies call for pause in Johnson & Johnson vaccine

#994

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you share some experiences with healthcare and the healthcare payment system in Croatia? I think we would all be fascinated to hear first hand accounts from someone who's also experienced the abysmal US system. What does your immunoglobulin cost in Croatia?

I'm not the original poster but I'm from Croatia. I've been living in the US for around 10 years now and have a chronic illness that required constant management: Type 1 Diabetes. I also have a separate issue, Pectus Excavatum, a chest deformity that required me to undertake a fairly difficult surgery called the Nuss Procedure. I think these two examples do a good job at demonstrating differences between Croatian an…

I’m the OP. I hope you become a US citizen just in case you need it (not just holding a green card). I agree with your assessment. I also have T1D. My neurologists and endocrinologists (I have 2 of each) are pretty sure one of my (very rare) neuro diseases caused the autoimmunity leading to the T1D diagnosis. The disease I have was discovered in the early 2000s at the Mayo Clinic off of NIH research grant funds. Call me crazy, but the only reason I do not renounce my US citizenship is because the US literally saved my life and others around the world via the NIH funded research discovery.

Re: US agencies call for pause in Johnson & Johnson vaccine

#995
post #892

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The (1/7 million) is the current, unconditional and empirically observed adverse effect of the vaccine - this is a somewhat noisy measure of the true prevalence of this issue. It is okay to be cautious and there are legitimate concerns, and quite frankly, I trust the FDA have good reason to pause this if Moderna/Pfizer are readily available anywy. How many injections do you personally need to feel comfortable? Seve…

> How many injections do you personally need to feel comfortable? Seven million people is way more than any clinical trial for any drug you've ever taken, and I guarantee you any of them is more likely to kill you. Again, the point is, when we observe adverse effect in the out-of-trial phase, it has hard to pin-point cause and effect. It is not a guarantee that the 7 million necessarily represent a random sample so p…

Sure, in isolation, that's all true. However, in isolation, the cost of doing nothing is zero. In a pandemic where 70% of America will catch a disease somewhere between 0.3% and 1% fatal, the cost of doing nothing is dramatically higher than zero. In fact, it's dramatically higher than a vaccine that just randomly kills 1 in 1,000,000 people - which this one strictly does not.

My point is that yes, an investigation should be carried out, but stopping the trial obviously - trivially - does more harm than good due to the extenuating circumstances of the global pandemic.

Re: US agencies call for pause in Johnson & Johnson vaccine

#996
post #407

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here, risk management should be a personal decision. In this case, the right set of actions might be to grant people freedom, and let market forces rule. I think some people would choose the J&J vaccine if it meant getting vaccinated faster. Some people would choose Moderna / Pfizer, later. It really depends on things like whether or not you can work from home, how depressing it is not interacting with people, or how…

> risk management should be a personal decision I think this is unrealistic for medical application, not only for vaccinations but in general for anything related to side effects of drugs. First of all, most people don't have the data and in this case part of the risk management is to get more data or consolidate and evaluate existing data more thoroughly. Second, while you might be an exception, the vast majority of…

People do make errors and have biases.

So do public health professionals. The passive death and disability from COVID19 is weighed far less than the active death of side-effects. Providing J&J to everyone in the US would obviously reduce spread and reduce the thousand-or-so deaths we're continuing to see in the US every day by far more than blood clots.

In general, doctors leave medical decision making to patients, is central to medical ethics. This even applies to patients with incomplete capacity.

Re: US agencies call for pause in Johnson & Johnson vaccine

#997

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hey. What will that mean exactly? DNS is through Cloudflare using their magical CNAME pointer. Can you access OK?

I see IPv4 A records. I am guessing what's happening is that when you look up the DNS over IPv6, it gives you AAAA records instead of A records. Or, it can depend on locality. Cloudflare is not a DNS provider that gives the same answer to everyone -- its goal is to direct traffic to the cache that's closest to the end user. Edit: I looked into it more and I can get IPv6 and IPv4 DNS servers to serve me both A and AAA…

At the time, the non-www subdomain only had IPv6 and I'm not running dual stack. They now look identical.

Re: US agencies call for pause in Johnson & Johnson vaccine

#998

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your link only has IPv6 records but the www. subdomain has IPv4.

Hey. What will that mean exactly? DNS is through Cloudflare using their magical CNAME pointer. Can you access OK?

It meant that anyone not using IPv6 or a dual stack provider wouldn't be able to view the site through the non-www domain. However, they look identical now, so you're good.

Re: US agencies call for pause in Johnson & Johnson vaccine

#999

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is true; the PDF linked in the GC has to make a number of assumptions and is very obviously made from a point of bias (which does not invalidate its claims but warrants extra scrutiny). Also it's comparing raw ICU admissions, but there are a number of really nasty adverse reactions that don't throw you in the ICU. The general "second shot syndrome" that something like half of people getting Pfizer/Moderna experien…

> is very obviously made from a point of bias Why do you believe that? It seems to me that the reputational damage caused by the U of C centre putting out bad slides is going to be stronger than any benefit they might get from being "seen to be a team player" or similar. Skepticism is always good but in this particular case, I do trust that evidence. > there are a number of really nasty adverse reactions that don't t…

> OK, but you can make the same argument for COVID. It seems to me that the slides are at least comparing apples with apples.

If you look at the rates of acute side effects to the vaccines, I forget the exact number but it's at least like 80%. It's insanely high. SARS-2 absolutely does not produce that given the massive proportion of asymptomatic individuals and significant amount of paucisymptomatic individuals

Re: US agencies call for pause in Johnson & Johnson vaccine

#1000
post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference being that you can't "catch" being obese with a viral infection.

The plot twist being that the virus we're discussing is by far more dangerous to the obese than to the healthy.

Touché my friend, touché indeed. ;-)
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