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The PyCon Incident

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Re: The PyCon Incident

#981

Post by shuzchen »

Domenic_S wrote: post #594
shuzchen wrote: post #504

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you had to be there. This year (and last year as well), there was a ton of messaging from the organizers/presenters/leaders regarding the past/future efforts to bring more women into the python community. They were really proud that 20% of attendees were female (that was on a keynote slide), Guido wore a "python is for girls" shirt (as he did last year), the Pyladies organization sponsored a ton of events (py…

I think I see where you're coming from, but "totally inappropriate" seems excessive to me.

Maybe that's just semantics with my choice of words. To clarify, I disagree with anyone that says they were entirely in the right to be making whatever jokes they made during that time and place, and I believe the gal was right to be offended and to bring it up with the pycon staff (but that doesn't apply to how she did it and her subsequent activity).

That said, I don't understand how this snowballed into people getting fired from their jobs. What they did was wrong, but things really got blown out of proportion, and we the internet haven't been helping. The story should have ended with the stern talking to by the pycon staff.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#982

Post by tn13 »

obstacle1 wrote: post #520
djcapelis wrote: post #465

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Try using google: http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=single+gender+teams+perf... I grabbed a couple citations while I was there because I was also curious: * http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/1468-0432.00129/a... - "Although generalizations from student-based studies to the workplace is problematic, the results indicate that groups may be more effective when women outnumber or equal men, especially in compl…

From the first paper: >This study has four limitations. First, the sample comprised students only working within fictitious enterprises in hypothetical industries and, as such, may not represent what actually happens in reality. >Second, the sample size was smaller than ideal. >Third, ethnic minorities were not identified among group members ... non-European individuals were present, but comprised less than 10% of th…

"working within fictitious enterprises in hypothetical industries"

They could have as well written "In a galaxy far far away...."

Re: The PyCon Incident

#983

Post by enriquepablo »

nollidge wrote: post #968
seivan wrote: post #966

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't have a discussion with you, if you actually believe people have a right to get offended and act on those emotions above other peoples emotions. No person has a right to get offended. Period. I don't know what caused you to call me stupid here, but I can understand you felt a need to call me out on something. It's my passionate belief that you have a right to express yourself freely. I am not going to argue wi…

It's very simple: if you don't have the right to be offended, then you don't have freedom of thought, much less freedom of speech. That you cite Rowan Atkinson's support of free speech as a defense is incredibly ironic. He's not saying you don't have a right to be offended or to express it, it's that you don't have a right to expect the government to act on that offense, and I'm in full agreement. I think you're trea…

I think you are forgetting that offending someone is a crime. And that Adria acted so that some justice system punished that crime of she being offended. Feeling offended and getting offended, is that the line that Adria crossed? She certainly did cross a line, and acted in a negative way. That she had no right to.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#984

Post by ErrantX »

wpietri wrote: post #632
ErrantX wrote: post #427

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You should talk to more women about this. Here's a bit of free advice :) when you start to use this argument, consider that perhaps you've run out of good rhetoric. You seem a decent enough guy, if a little clueless, so I'll give you more advice if I may. Making lewd comments certainly might make others feel uncomfortable (male or female), but the fear factor comes from attitude and presence, not the words. For exa…

Hi, Tom. I have talked to actual women who tell me this. Why do you, as a guy, feel qualified to invalidate their experiences? I don't think Adira felt immediate fear for her physical safety, no. But I do think fear of sexual harassment and sexual violence are an important reason why it is very important that "harmless" sexualization of professional situations isn't harmless at all.

Oh piffle, the whole "why do you, as a guy" rhetoric is even worse. Although, for what it is worth, I have volunteered in a women's shelter for many years, so have a wealth of empirical information to draw on.

What you're doing, though, is taking one issue and turning into a much more "serious" one (I use that term loosely, neither sexual discomfort nor sexual violence should be taken lightly).

Yes, sexualisation of professional situations is a problem (at least, it quite often is). As I noted, this applies to both male and female top-heavy environments. But the issue isn't really about fear of sexual violence, that simply does not match up with reality.

I agree, some women are sensitive to these sorts of conversations. And they can be triggers for them which lead to fear. But more important is the much larger majority of women for whom this conversations "merely" (again, using the term loosely) degrades them as an individual.

Hence me objecting to your casting of this issue as a major problem r.e. threat of violence. 99.9999% of the people making these comments are not about to commit sexual violence, and the vast majority of women (and, yes, men) being subjected to it are not in fear for themselves. By casting it as you have, you've undermined the issue.

And you're initial phrasing itself sounded patronising and degrading (although obviously not your intention).

EDIT: p.s. it's Adria not Adira.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#985

Post by CRConrad »

katbyte wrote: post #629
btilly wrote: post #612

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you assume that some time had passed? I did not get that impression from her article. (But it is not specified either way, so time might have passed.)

in her article: >Jesse Noller was up on stage thanking the sponsors. The guys behind me (one off to the right) said, “You can thank me, you can thank me”. That told me they were a sponsoring company of Pycon and from the photos I took, his badge had an add-on that said, “Sponsor”. >They started talking about “big” dongles. I could feel my face getting flustered So it seems that from the forking thing to the dongle th…

Rather tangential, but may still have some bearing: Anyone who claims to feel their "/face/ getting flustered" is trying to use words they don't quite know how to use, which to me is an indication of lower credibility than if they stuck to using words they know how to use. It may not count for much, but it is a count against mz Richards in my book.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#986

Post by white_devil »

jamesaguilar wrote: post #957
white_devil wrote: post #902

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The way you speak and the way you dress are also considered part of "professionalism". Those are the parts that I take issue with.

I don't really get why you would bring your issues with that into a discussion about sexual jokes, but OK.

I don't really get why you'd draw this out all the way here, but OK.

:p

Re: The PyCon Incident

#987

Post by dliebelson »

mr-hank wrote: post #642
rdtsc wrote: post #536

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Come to think of it, Twisted also makes me uncomfortable. Quick, call Jesse Noller and security and escort Glyph out of the building.

To be fair to PSF Jesse Noller was not involved, and we were not escorted out of the building. Their accounting of the issue can be found here: http://pycon.blogspot.com/2013/03/pycon-response-to-inapprop...

I am a reporter with Mother Jones magazine, and I would like to speak with you directly about the incident as reported by Adria (there's a lot of misinformation floating around, I want to get the facts straight.) Mind getting in touch? dliebelson@motherjones.com

Re: The PyCon Incident

#988

Post by dliebelson »

dliebelson wrote: post #987
mr-hank wrote: post #642

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair to PSF Jesse Noller was not involved, and we were not escorted out of the building. Their accounting of the issue can be found here: http://pycon.blogspot.com/2013/03/pycon-response-to-inapprop...

I am a reporter with Mother Jones magazine, and I would like to speak with you directly about the incident as reported by Adria (there's a lot of misinformation floating around, I want to get the facts straight.) Mind getting in touch? dliebelson@motherjones.com

I basically want to get this verified:

Can you verify your identity as the employee let go by PlayHaven?

Can you verify that you are one of the two people pictured in Adria Richards' Tweet?

Were those jokes made as Richards described? Are there any differences between her account and what you think actually happened? (I know you've addressed this a bit already, but I'd like to hear more.)

Is Alex Reid one of these employees in the photograph, who was making a sexist joke? (It sounds like he wasn't.)

Can you confirm that you were fired because of the jokesmade at the conference?

Thanks, Dana

dliebelson@motherjones.com

Re: The PyCon Incident

#989

Post by wotwot »

JPKab wrote: post #912
Joeboy wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, I am really puzzled as to why these "jokes" are supposed to be offensive to women. They might be offensive to people raised in some cultures / subcultures, and they don't sound like they're great jokes in any culture, but nobody ever told me about the meeting where women decided knob jokes were offensive. In fact a female friend texted me one about an hour ago.

It wasn't offensive. I see a lot of cases of ACTUAL, OFFENSIVE sexism on HN. This isn't it. This is an attention addict using whatever means at her disposal to get attention, without a thought as to the cost to those she uses as pawns. We all have encountered both males and females that are real victims, and we have also all encountered people who pretend to be offended for attention. I use to work in the deep south,…

Politically expedient faux outrage.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#990

Post by wotwot »

nollidge wrote: post #953
seivan wrote: post #941

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IT IS NOT HER RIGHT TO GET OFFENDED. Now you're probably wondering why I used all caps. I really don't have a good explanation for that. Because once I read your post, that's the first thing that sprung to my mind.. in Helvetica-Neu, bold 38px.

I am not a person prone to hyperbole, so please understand that when I say this is one of the stupidest things I have ever read on Hacker News, I'm not saying so for the hackneyed dramatic flair. This... is one of the stupidest things I have ever read on Hacker News. You appear to not have given this even one iota of critical thought, or are a complete psychopath, or perhaps you are using a language superficially ide…

It's not her right to expect that something necessarily needs to be done about it.

I'm offended. Okay.....

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