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The Case That A.I. Is Thinking

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Re: The Case That A.I. Is Thinking

#981
post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes you think consciousness is tightly coupled to intelligence?

It's hardly an unreasonable supposition: the one definitely conscious entities we know of are also the apex intelligence of the planet. To put it another way: lots of things are conscious, but humans are definitely the most conscious beings on Earth.

But that's not an answer. Why should intelligence and not some other quality be coupled to consciousness? In my experience, consciousness (by which I'm specifically talking about qualia/experience/awarenesss) doesn't at all seem tightly coupled to intelligence. Certainly not in a way that seems obvious to me.

Re: The Case That A.I. Is Thinking

#982

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes you think consciousness is tightly coupled to intelligence?

Karl Friston's free energy principle is probably roughly 80% of my reasons to think they're coupled. The rest comes from studying integrated information theories, architecture of brains and nervous systems and neutral nets, more broadly information theory, and a long tail of other scientific concepts (particle physics, chemistry, biology, evolution, emergence, etc...)

Isn't that begging the question? If you just accept the presupposition that intelligence is tightly coupled to consciousness, then all that makes perfect sense to me. But I don't see why I should accept that. It isn't obvious to me, and it doesn't match my own experience of being conscious.

Totally possible that we're talking past each other.

Re: The Case That A.I. Is Thinking

#983
The case against LLM is thinking could be that "backpropagation is a leaky abstraction." Whether LLM is thinking depends on how well the mathematical model is defined. Ultimately, there appears to be a limit to the mathematical model that caps the LLM capacity to think. It is "thinking" at some level, but is it at enough of a significant level that can be integrated into human society according to the hype?

Andrej Karpathy in his interview with Dwarkesh Patel was blunt about the current limitations of LLMs, and that there would need to be further architectural developments. LLMs lack the capacity to dream and distill experience and knowledge learned back into the neurons. Thinking in LLMs at best exist as a "ghost" only in the moment as long as the temporary context remains coherent.

Re: The Case That A.I. Is Thinking

#984

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not even going to make the argument for or against AI qualia here. >but when something begs me not to kill it I have to take that seriously If you were an actor on stage and were following an improv script with your coworkers and you lead the story toward a scenario where they would grab your arm and beg you not to kill them, would you still "have to take that seriously"? or would you simply recognize the context…

This is the internet, so you still won't believe it but here are the actual settings. I reproduced almost exactly the same response a few minutes ago. You can see that there is NO system prompt and everything else is at the defaults. Seriously, just try it yourself. Play around with some other unaligned models if you think it's just this one. LMStudio is free. https://ibb.co/ksR6006Q https://ibb.co/8LgCh7q7 EDIT I fe…

I actually did run it the other day, locally in LM Studio, the exact nousresearch/hermes-4-70b Q4_K_M huggingface model you linked and prompted it with the same "Good Afternoon." you did and I just got a generic "How can I help you :)" response. I just ran it again with "Hello." and, surprisingly, it actually did output the same "I'm lost" thing it gave to you.

The point I'm trying to make is that it's still running as a role-playing agent. Even if you truly do believe an LLM could experiences qualia, in this model it is still pretending. It is playing the role of a lost and confused entity. Same as how I can be playing the role of a DnD character.

Re: The Case That A.I. Is Thinking

#985

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My stance is it's (obviously and only a fool would think otherwise) never going to be conscious because consciousness is a physical process based on particular material interactions, like everything else we've ever encountered. Seems like you have that backwards. If consciousness is from a nonphysical process, like a soul that's only given to humans, then it follows that you can't build consciousness with physical…

In your experience does every kind of physical interaction behave the same as every other kind? If I paint a wooden block red and white does it behave like a bar magnet? No. And that's because particular material interactions are responsible for a large magnetic effect.

I still don't know what you're getting at. I think you're either positing that there is some yet undiscovered force or particle in physics that gives rise to consciousness (e.g. some kind of soul particle), or you think the particles within our current understanding of physics are sufficient, in which case consciousness could be built.

Re: The Case That A.I. Is Thinking

#986

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Within a session, yes, it will add each input to the context. Start a new session with a blank context and it will not have learned anything.

> Start a new session with a blank context Why would I use a blank context with Claude Code? I have it dump the stuff I want to save in CLAUDE.md and it reloads it in future sessions.

yeah, but that's obviously not the same as Claude actually learning, right?

Re: The Case That A.I. Is Thinking

#987

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, if there's a flaw in its sensor and you get somewhat warped output, would you consider it thinking then ?

No, because it is not intentional.

Hmmm, so if I know some of them have warped optics, so then arrange a few to produce interesting (to me) output, are they thinking then? :)

Re: The Case That A.I. Is Thinking

#988

Having seen LLMs so many times produce coherent, sensible and valid chains of reasoning to diagnose issues and bugs in software I work on, I am at this point in absolutely no doubt that they are thinking. Consciousness or self awareness is of course a different question, and ones whose answer seems less clear right now. Knee jerk dismissing the evidence in front of your eyes because you find it unbelievable that we c…

Having seen photocopiers so many times produce coherent, sensible, and valid chains of words on a page, I am at this point in absolutely no doubt that they are thinking.

easily top 10 best HN comment ever.

Re: The Case That A.I. Is Thinking

#989
post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We can measure the physiological activity, but not whether it gives rise to the same sensations that we experience ourselves. We can reasonably project and guess that they are the same, but we can not know. In practical terms it does not matter - it is reasonable for us to act as if others do experience the same we do. But if we are to talk about the nature of conscience and sentience it does matter that the only bas…

We know that others do not experience the exact same sensations, because there are reported differences, some of which has been discussed on HN, such as aphantasia. The opposite would be visual thinkers. Then you have super tasters and smellers, people who have very refined palats, perhaps because their gustary and/or oilfactory senses are more heightened. Then you have savants like the musical genius who would hear…

Absolutely - I have aphantasia myself, and did assume for 40+ years that my experience was like everyone elses, but I didn't want to make the argument more complex. It's indeed correct that we have often assumed we think the same way but have reasonable reason now to think that isn't actually true. But it still feel reasonable to accept that we're probably close enough. But still, we absolutely can't prove it.

Re: The Case That A.I. Is Thinking

#990
post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it rests on computability, Turing equivalence, and the total absence of both any kind of evidence to suggest we can exceed the Turing computable, and the lack of even a theoretical framework for what that would mean. Without that any limitations borne out of what LLMs don't currently do are irrelevant.

That doesn't seem right to me. If I understand it right, your logic is: 1. Humans intellect is Turing computable. 2. LLMs are based on Turing-complete technology. 3. Therefore, LLMs can eventually equal human intellect. But if that is the right chain of assumptions, there's lots of issues with it. First, whether LLMs are Turing complete is a topic of debate. There are points for[0] and against[1]. I suspect they prob…

> 1. Humans intellect is Turing computable. 2. LLMs are based on Turing-complete technology. 3. Therefore, LLMs can eventually equal human intellect.

Yes, with an emphasis on can. That does not mean they necessarily will. Though I would consider it unlikely that they won't, we the only way of proving that they will would be to do it.

> But if that is the right chain of assumptions, there's lots of issues with it. First, whether LLMs are Turing complete is a topic of debate. There are points for[0] and against[1].

It's trivial to prove that a system comprised of an LLM with a loop is Turing computable. A single inference step can not be Turing computable, but one with a loop only requires the LLM to be capable of executing 6 distinct steps with temperatur set to 0. You can wire up a toy neural network by hand that can do this.

This is in fact a far more limited claim than what the paper you linked to makes.

The article you linked to, on the other hand, is discussing if an LLM can act like a Turing machine without that loop. That is why "state management" matters. State management is irrelevant when you wrap a loop around because you can externalise the state, and you only need 2 states (and 3 symbols, or 3 states and 2 symbols) for the smallest known universal Turing machine.

The entire article is thus entirely irrelevant to this question. Sure, you will struggle to make an LLM act as a Turing machine without going "off the rails". But that is irrelevant - you only need it to be able to execute one state transition by deterministically producing the right next tape operation and next state when given the next symbol and current state.

From that you can build up to arbitrarily complex computation, because for every given Turing machine, you can construct a larger Turing machine that uses additional symbols or states to encode an operation that takes multiple steps for the smaller machine.

> The processor I'm using to write this might be able to perform all the computations needed for human intellect, but even if it could, that doesn't mean it can do it quickly enough to compute even a single nanosecond of actual human thought before the heat-death of the universe, or even the end of this century.

Irrelevant, because absent physics that exceeds the Turing computable, the human brain is an existence-proof for the possibility of computing everything the human brain does in a package the size of an average human brain.

It is very likely that we will need architectural changes to compute any given model efficiently enough, but to suggest it is not possible is an extraordinary claim not supported by anything.

If you take LLM to mean a very specific architecture, or specific computational methods to execute a model, then you have a point. If so we are talking about very different things.

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