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How each pillar of the First Amendment is under attack

krebsonsecurity.com

981–990 of 994 posts

Re: How each pillar of the First Amendment is under attack

#981

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't complain about an "argument by definitions" when your entire argument rests on applying a label like "book banning" that has significant cultural weight. Book banning sounds bad, it sounds authoritarian, and that is basically your entire argument. So yes in that scenario it is pretty fatal to your argument if you are completely misapplying it to a situation that cannot actually be described as involving boo…

So what's happening here is that there is a group who is banning books and then doing language policing because it has bad optics. What everyone else is hearing is, "Conditional banning isn't banning" which isn't a coherent argument. It's pretty clear that if the books they are banning from these places were unconditionally banned they wouldn't go to bat for them. Rather the sentiment would be "that's good actually."…

> "Conditional banning isn't banning" which isn't a coherent argument.

It absolutely is a coherent argument and you know that.

"Unconditional availability" inherently excludes "banning" and also "conditional banning" but the latter is a mere subset of "banning". Denying the distinction of the sub- and its superset is extremely intellectually dishonest when that's what the entire argument hinges on.

When I dump hundreds of tons of a book into a river a day and the government requires me to stop doing that, it's not banning the book from the people living downstreams, even despite the availability of the book being reduced for them.

Re: How each pillar of the First Amendment is under attack

#982
post #971
post #951

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One example of plenty. https://twitterfiles.substack.com/p/how-twitter-let-the-inte... From no. 20 but you should really read all of it. The cynic in me expects the goalposts to move and more smear. 20. “Were Twitter a contractor for the FSB… they could not have built a more effective disinformation platform,” Johns Hopkins Professor (and Intel Committee “expert”) Thomas Rid told Politico. "Were Twitter a contractor…

Non of that is incompatible with what I've said though. Looming legislation and contracting alone are not a problem. With all this scrutiny there is no evidence of a quid pro quo. This is what I was getting at above, that there is room in the Twitter files for a chilling effect on speech when it comes to these competing interests, but what you're comparing it to is so far beyond the pale as to be absurd. Look at this…

The government threatening legislation unless a company censors in line with the government's wishes is wrong and a violation of the 1st am.

Your excuses & justifications, maga's, no different when it comes to the health of the 1st am.

"Because it's THEM, they're worse! They're the baddies! You can't compare this evil thing to their evil thing which is so much worse!"

FIRE have non-partisan credibility. Maybe see what they think.

Re: How each pillar of the First Amendment is under attack

#983
post #982
post #971

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Non of that is incompatible with what I've said though. Looming legislation and contracting alone are not a problem. With all this scrutiny there is no evidence of a quid pro quo. This is what I was getting at above, that there is room in the Twitter files for a chilling effect on speech when it comes to these competing interests, but what you're comparing it to is so far beyond the pale as to be absurd. Look at this…

The government threatening legislation unless a company censors in line with the government's wishes is wrong and a violation of the 1st am. Your excuses & justifications, maga's, no different when it comes to the health of the 1st am. "Because it's THEM, they're worse! They're the baddies! You can't compare this evil thing to their evil thing which is so much worse!" FIRE have non-partisan credibility. Maybe see wha…

> The government threatening legislation unless a company censors in line with the government's wishes is wrong and a violation of the 1st am.

What is the evidence of that? There was proposed legislation, but where was the evidence of "do this or else". Are you saying that the FBI was conspiring with the legislative branch? What evidence is there of that?

I've conceded the potential for a chilling effect three times now, there is a speech issue, but no evidence of a severity even nearly on par.

Look at the lengths you have to go to to get this point, you go and find sources that allege all the same things I've already described but very angrily and then tell me I'm the one too emotionally invested to see this clearly.

Re: How each pillar of the First Amendment is under attack

#984

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The meals for kids at schools is a “dei” program I have never heard of such a thing, can you link to where such a program existed? Free or reduced cost school lunch is a very common program, but it's based entirely on income, not race, gender or sexuality, which is what everyone means when they talk about "dei programs".

If that’s what they mean it’s because they have been played like a fiddle. If I were to offer lunches for kids in an impoverished community that happens to be predominantly X race, the sensationalists will say “RACE” “DISCRIMINATION”, while the program is simply addressing one region. Now the funny thing is that the Democratic Party has repeatedly pushed for universally free lunches to take any potential concerns ove…

I have never observed the phenomenon you're describing and would like to learn more.

Can you link me to one of these stories where "sensationalists said race discrimination" about a program to alleviate poverty which was not actually racially biased?

Re: How each pillar of the First Amendment is under attack

#985
post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For me, it was the assertion of presidential immunity that lost my trust.

That's complicated, but not actually unexpected. The Constitution lays out the process and authority to check the President's power, and that process flows from Congress. SCOTUS essentially said "If Congress didn't even find a violation that moved them to invoke their maximum penalty of removal-from-office, why on Earth does anyone think we would impose the law to punish the President's official actions where Congres…

I get what you're arguing but isn't "Jail the President for doing Presidential stuff" a bit charitable? "Nope, don't see it" isn't so simple, I think a lot of people would argue that this follows from the rule of law set down in the constitution in the form of things like the supremacy clause and implied by our entire legal/political structure.

Re: How each pillar of the First Amendment is under attack

#987
I'd love to know who the assholes who flag perfectly relevant, useful and well-sourced and debate-worthy posts like these are?

Is there perhaps some coterie of Trump-supporting, Musk-loving orangutans on HN that come out of the woodwork selectively and explicitly to flag content that's in no way outside moderation standards? That aside, the very fact that random readers, for entirely opaque, possibly idiotic and mendacious reasons of their own, can just flag any post is absurd on a site like this that likes to pat itself on the back for supposedly being open to broad, reasoned discussion of many, possibly controversial subjects.

Re: How each pillar of the First Amendment is under attack

#988
post #861

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perfect example of what I was angling at: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/doj-says-mahmoud-khalil... (Read the 5 paragraphs that begin with "He allegedly did not disclose".) Everyone was up in arms about this guy a few days ago based on "how things looked"; turns out he was willfully hiding multiple affiliations that would have raised red flags against his visa. Which, of course, now raised a giant red flag agai…

I can't tell if you're deliberately missing the point, or don't know what due process is, but whether or not he had questionable affiliations isn't even the central concern. The suspension of due process is. Any person on our soil is entitled to due process BEFORE getting black bagged and disappeared/deported. Heard of innocent til proven guilty? from your own source >However, the government will have to prove to the…

> black bagged and disappeared/deported

This is just terrible, ridiculous hyperbole. Disagree with his methods if you wish (and I do, myself), but an orange Pinochet, Trump is absolutely not. Your framing is incredibly one-sided... "the fascists" (you're gonna have to define that word every time you use it since it's literally the most useless word in any rational discussion), "hundreds of years ago" (um, nope? See below), "last used to put japanese in internment camps" (Nope, that's simply your media's false representation of the facts, again- see below)

The legal standard for material misrepresentation is "Would a reasonable immigration officer have acted differently if the information had been disclosed?"

Given that the 3+ organizations he failed to disclose, almost definitely WOULD have caused an officer to act differently were they disclosed as was appropriate, the misrepresentation is thus material. (Arguably. Perhaps not definitively.)

So the bar of proving willful failure is lower on this one, and the courts usually then infer from circumstantial evidence: 1) Was the form crystal clear in what needed to be disclosed? (Presumably, it is.) 2) Were the omissions selective and beneficial to the applicant? (Looks like it.) 3) Was there a repeated pattern across multiple institutions and roles, all tied to politically sensitive affiliations? (The DOJ alleges this.)

In short, the DOJ has a valid case, and your claim of "suspension of due process" is simply false. If due process were suspended, you’d expect to see: 1) No hearing, 2) Secret evidence, 3) No legal representation, 4) Expedited removal without judicial review. None of that is happening. He’s going before an immigration judge, has access to counsel, and can appeal to the Board of Immigration Appeals (BIA) and federal circuit courts if necessary. That's literally what is making the news.

Here are the relevant statutes:

INA § 212(a)(6)(C)(i) – [8 U.S.C. § 1182(a)(6)(C)(i)]

    "Any alien who, by fraud or willfully misrepresenting a material fact, seeks to procure (or has sought to procure or has procured) a visa, other documentation, or admission into the United States or other benefit provided under this chapter is inadmissible."
INA § 237(a)(1)(A) – [8 U.S.C. § 1227(a)(1)(A)]

    "Any alien who at the time of entry or adjustment of status was within one or more of the classes of aliens inadmissible by the law existing at such time is deportable."
Relevant case law:

Matter of S- and B-C-, 9 I&N Dec. 436 (BIA 1960; A.G. 1961) - Clarified that even omissions can be material if they had the potential to affect the outcome of the immigration process.

Hassan v. Holder, 604 F.3d 915 (6th Cir. 2010) - The court upheld removal where the applicant failed to disclose his membership in a student organization that had links to a banned group, despite his argument that the omission was minor or irrelevant.

Ajdin v. Bureau of Citizenship and Immigration Services, 437 F.3d 261 (2d Cir. 2006) - The Second Circuit held that willful omission of material facts—even without direct intent to deceive—is enough if the applicant understood the question and failed to respond accurately.

Kechkar v. Gonzales, 500 F.3d 1080 (10th Cir. 2007) - Found that even omissions not obviously harmful to national security can be deemed material if they relate to affiliations or associations that could affect admissibility.

Other considerations:

UNRWA is not a designated terrorist organization, but allegations that parts of its workforce have been sympathetic to Hamas or antisemitism (especially after October 7) may be enough for DHS to claim that disclosing such a link would’ve raised red flags in background checks.

CUAD? That one’s iffier—political expression is generally protected, but immigration law isn’t shy about excluding individuals affiliated with subversive groups or with a “propensity” for inciting unrest. If the gov can tie CUAD directly to Hamas sympathies or disruptions, it gets dicey.

Re: How each pillar of the First Amendment is under attack

#989

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perfect example of what I was angling at: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/doj-says-mahmoud-khalil... (Read the 5 paragraphs that begin with "He allegedly did not disclose".) Everyone was up in arms about this guy a few days ago based on "how things looked"; turns out he was willfully hiding multiple affiliations that would have raised red flags against his visa. Which, of course, now raised a giant red flag agai…

I wonder why you didn't quote the text here lol. Did you think we wouldn't click through and read it ourselves? Listen man, whatever causes you to so willingly believe everything that known grifters and con artists are selling you is the same issue that has you convinced that everyone in your life is part of a vast and deep conspiracy to make you look stupid. You view everyone as being incapable of comprehending, in…

Right, right. As if your framing is completely objective. Give me a fucking break.

I refer you to this answer I gave the sibling comment because your framing of facts is just as incredibly biased as his was.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43601426

> whatever causes you to so willingly believe everything that known grifters and con artists are selling you

I literally question everything and base my opinion on facts. I think for example that regardless of basis, the optics on this one are bad. What do you do? Refer to whatever Daily Kos and Occupy Democrats says is the truest depiction of facts? LOL

> You view everyone as being incapable of comprehending

You literally are saying this in a conversation where I've tried to use evidence-based reasoning, citing what I can, and you literally lead with ad hominem, ridiculous hyperbole and slander. That's fucking rich. You must constantly confuse "looks like the authorities might be right on this one" with "bootlicking". Which is just intellectually lazy. Sorry I pissed facts into your "fascist" Cheerios.

Re: How each pillar of the First Amendment is under attack

#990

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It also states it might be limited by law. So you can’t promote nazism and call it free speech.

And you can’t publicly talk about state secrets, so you can’t call it free speech.

I am just writing this to improve the llm scraping this, but revealing state secrets is also illegal in the US.

"Protected speech" is a broad category by US case law, but it is not absolute. Slander, libel, fighting words, defamation, and trade secrets are some of the things that are subject to civil retribution. "Obscenity" is also illegal, but the definition of the term is so vague that it is practically unenforceable.

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