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U.K. orders Apple to let it spy on users’ encrypted accounts

washingtonpost.com

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Re: U.K. orders Apple to let it spy on users’ encrypted accounts

#981

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It's incumbent on the prosecution to prove that you know the key they are claiming you are withholding. It is a defence to say you forgot it, or that the data is random. The prosecution would have to prove that you didn't forget it and that the data is not random. In most cases it requires a court order as well.

> It is a defence to say you forgot it, Do you have a source for that assertion?

It's only an offence if you "knowingly fail" to provide it - https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2000/23/section/53

s3 makes it clear that if you plausibly claim you have forgotten it, then the prosecution must prove this is not the case (i.e. you still know it) beyond reasonable doubt.

Re: U.K. orders Apple to let it spy on users’ encrypted accounts

#982

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New Zealand.

They're seeing their own shift to the right as well. https://theasialive.com/how-progressive-new-zealand-shifted-...

They elected a right-wing government, but it's pretty run of the mill, not the kind of crazy we're seeing in US and many places in Europe lately.

Re: U.K. orders Apple to let it spy on users’ encrypted accounts

#984

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This week we've had the federal laws strengthend to a one year minimum jail time for nazi salutes. I think saying "punch a nazi" unironically could now also get you a year in jail, but I'm not sure about that one.

Oh, you feel the need to defend nazis?

No, the neo-nazis can defend themselves. I just support personal freedoms.

Re: U.K. orders Apple to let it spy on users’ encrypted accounts

#985

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It seems apparent to me that Apple leaked this information to US press in an attempt to get the UK to back off. Wouldn't Apple also try to subvert the attempt for US intelligence to get a backdoor? Or do we think Apple has less of a leg to stand on with US and would be more likely to roll over?

> Or do we think Apple has less of a leg to stand on with US and would be more likely to roll over? Apple has no leg to stand on at all. When the NSA comes to your door and demands access to everything you have you don't get to say no. There is no court you can appeal to, and they'll take whatever they want and order you to keep your mouth shut about it. They'll walk right into your headquarters and data centers, for…

You've never heard of courts? The world does not work the way you think it does at all.

Re: U.K. orders Apple to let it spy on users’ encrypted accounts

#986
post #273

I don't think the UK government would try to put Apple out of business if they don't comply it's more likely that they would just get heavily fined until they do so. The most likely outcome, I would guess, is that Apple just stop offering Advanced Data Protection as a service in the UK rather than create some kind of backdoor. It's a weak proposition from the government because anyone with something to hide will just…

If just turning off ADP placates the UK, it implies that the UK already has a backdoor to unencrypted data.

Re: U.K. orders Apple to let it spy on users’ encrypted accounts

#987

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, you feel the need to defend nazis?

No, the neo-nazis can defend themselves. I just support personal freedoms.

You’re deflecting.

As such you demonstrate that you will not be an ally in case of a surge of unethical behavior.

The point isn’t for nazis to defend themselves - it is to defeat them while you can.

Re: U.K. orders Apple to let it spy on users’ encrypted accounts

#988

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The text of the amendment is as clear as day: anyone born in the US is automatically a citizen, with only a few, well defined exceptions (children of foreign diplomats). The Supreme Court already ruled on the meaning of the amendment in 1898, so there's no possible ambiguity left. Trump's executive order is just blatantly illegal.

Ah, but it's not so simple. Here's part of the majority opinion: "Chinese persons, born out of the United States, remaining subjects of the Emperor of China, and not having become citizens of the United States, are entitled to the protection of, and owe allegiance to, the United States so long as they are permitted by the United States to reside here, and are “subject to the jurisdiction thereof” in the same sense as…

You're confusing the facts of the case with the opinion.

The section you're quoting is a recapitulation of the facts of the case, as agreed upon by all parties. The majority then lays out its legal theory and applies them to the facts, not all of which are relevant to the decision.

The court argues at length that under English Common Law (which is also the law of the United States), anyone born in the country is automatically a citizen, with only two exceptions:

1. Children of accredited diplomats.

2. Children born to hostile foreign armies in belligerent occupation of some part of the country's territory. For example, it cites the case of a child born to the wife of a British soldier during the British occupation of Charleston, during the revolution. That child is not an American citizen.

The court only recognizes one further exception to birthright citizenship:

3. Children born under the jurisdiction of Native American tribes. The court says that the existence of quasi-independent native tribes is a special circumstance with no precedent in English Common Law.

The court specifically argues that English Common Law and the text of the 14th Amendment allow no other exceptions. The concept of "legal domicile" is not relevant to citizenship, and the court specifically states that even the children of sojourners, businesspeople and others only temporarily in the country become citizens at birth. The only exceptions are those I listed above.

The point is that you have to actually read the majority opinion, which argues all of these points at great length.

What Trump is trying to push through, by executive order, would be a massive revision of American law, going back to the Constitution and even before the revolution. The 14th Amendment was intended to make those principles, which Trump is now denying, completely unassailable for all time.

Re: U.K. orders Apple to let it spy on users’ encrypted accounts

#989
post #180

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If you, like me, didn't know where the idiom "I've got a bridge to sell you" comes from, here you go: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_C._Parker George C. Parker was a conman in NYC who multiples times sold the ownership of the Brooklyn Bridge to his victims. Among other cons.

I know we're going off topic but I remember hearing about this, and reminded me then a similar case in Paris where the Eifel Tower was being sold too. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victor_Lustig

Ah, the good ol' days of conman. No, all we've got are crypto scammer =D

Re: U.K. orders Apple to let it spy on users’ encrypted accounts

#990

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In a situation where an accused criminal used Whatsapp and decrypting it is needed to view the content which may or not lead to a conviction. This ridiculous idea that law enforcement knows people are guilty and it is these pesky rights that keep getting in the way is just false. Police regularly and consistently abuse their power to railroad people and take the easiest path to convicting someone . Even in situations…

It's easy to construct a reasonable scenario. You catch a guy doing something bad. You know he's a part of a big organized crime organisation, because you already caught some of the other conspirators. And you could bring the whole thing down based on documents / chats etc which are encrypted. I'm not saying, based on that, you throw away privacy rules. But to not even acknowledge that there is a conflict is IMO insa…

>You catch a guy doing something bad

If you have evidence that he was doing something bad, prosecute him. You must have evidence, because you couldn’t know he was doing something bad based off these chats you can’t read.

>You know he's a part of a big organized crime organisation, because you already caught some of the other conspirators.

So charge them with conspiracy or RICO (Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations).

>you could bring the whole thing down based on documents / chats etc which are encrypted.

How can you possibly know that? If you have evidence of crimes, use that to prosecute. If you don’t have evidence, then you don’t know crimes were committed. Regardless, you don’t even know if these encrypted chats contain anything incriminating.

Government is not another mafia, they are a group of people who are flawed. “Good” governments have laws protecting the rights of citizens against individuals within government. That is like saying that we don’t need defense attorneys because prosecutors are good people and wouldn’t bring a case against an innocent person, or would never bend/break the rules to get a conviction. We have them to protect the rights of the innocent and the guilty.

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