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Ross Ulbricht granted a full pardon

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Re: Ross Ulbricht granted a full pardon

#981

Post by blitzar »

Beijinger wrote: post #944
_yb2s wrote: post #798

I feel torn about this because it seems there was good evidence for attempted murder- and I cannot understand why they never tried him for that (seemingly larger) crime. However, for the crime he was actually found guilty of, the sentence was unfair and unreasonable. It seems they unethically sentenced him for crimes he was not even ever charged with. I'd also argue he almost certainly saved a huge number of lives wi…

"for the crime he was actually found guilty of, the sentence was unfair and unreasonable." Was it? Based on current law in the US? While I do not know English Common law well, in many jurisdictions, every part of the drug dealing is drug dealing. Even if you never touch a drug and just provide payment processing services, transport or whatever, as long as you are aware of it and profit from it, it is drug dealing. So…

In most of Asia the sentence would have been death (back to back multiple sentences if that is possible).

Re: Ross Ulbricht granted a full pardon

#982

Post by _yb2s »

kylebenzle wrote: post #974
_yb2s wrote: post #798

I feel torn about this because it seems there was good evidence for attempted murder- and I cannot understand why they never tried him for that (seemingly larger) crime. However, for the crime he was actually found guilty of, the sentence was unfair and unreasonable. It seems they unethically sentenced him for crimes he was not even ever charged with. I'd also argue he almost certainly saved a huge number of lives wi…

What you are saying is nothing short of the manifestation of pure evil. Innocent until proven guilty, not guilty until a random hunch is resolved. The federal government has a long history of manufacturing evidence and this is no different. Again, pure evil what you are saying.

What are you talking about? I specifically said it was unethical that they seem to have sentenced him for crimes he was never even tried for- but deserved a fair trial for. You appear to think I was saying the opposite of that?

Re: Ross Ulbricht granted a full pardon

#983

Post by myrmidon »

mrandish wrote: post #928
kernal wrote: post #534

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't credit Trump in any way for doing "the right thing" or even having a principled position regarding Ross' case. This is probably the most ridiculous comment in this thread. Trump even spoke at the Libertarian convention and specifically mentioned how unjust the sentence was and that he would pardon Ross as one of his campaign promises and he delivered. Trump saw parallels between the attack on Ross and the p…

Actually, I support neither major political party. I'm probably closest to a moderate "free markets, free minds" libertarian (note: the small "l" means I'm not in, or aligned with, the national Libertarian Party). I haven't voted for any candidate from either major party for decades. I greatly disapprove of Biden, Harris and Trump equally, along with almost all state and federal politicians of both parties. There are…

This is a very interesting standpoint.

I personally believe that having lots of parties founded on concise, coherent principles would be very nice from a voter point of view (to express preferences), but those would be completely unable to actually govern-- because there are a lot of decisions to make and compromises to find, and trying to do this solely based on a small set of principles is just not possible, because you would need to abstain from all decisions that your founding principles can not answer clearly (and no current democracy is set up in a way that enables this).

I can picture a system where this could work in theory (lots of parties forming the government, but most parties abstain from voting on any single decision), but I can see no way of preventing scope creep/consolidation...

Regarding the "both main parties equally bad" aspect:

What are your main pain points with the previous administration? As an outsider, to me it appears that despite getting dealt a rather bad hand (Covid/Ukraine/Middle East chaos), they made a lot of correct decisions (in hindsight).

Post-trump republicans, on the other hand, appear irresponsibly selfcentered to me in many ways (climate/emissions, Covid policies, foreign/trade, anti-pluralism). I also think that (2016) Trump poisoned political discourse in a insidiously harmful way, by basically forgoing any form of factual debate in favor of spewing insults at every opportunit (lying Hillary, sleepy Joe, ...)-- this alone I feel almost requires opposition...

What issue would your ideal party tackle first?

Re: Ross Ulbricht granted a full pardon

#984

Post by etc-hosts »

_yb2s wrote: post #817
garyfirestorm wrote: post #809

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They can try now! Because he is pardoned for the existing convictions not for future convictions

That is interesting. I'd suspect he could possibly be found guilty of attempted murder, and have the sentence reduced or eliminated by arguing that his previous sentence unjustly assumed guilt for this as well, and factored it into the sentence he already served. If I remember correctly, there were comments from both the prosecution and judge that would basically prove that point- and they allowed evidence related to…

There was deliberately no mention of the alleged murders-for-hire during the trial.

The judge said during sentencing that she was giving Ulbricht an incredibly harsh sentence to make an example of him to others who think that facilitating selling drugs is a victimless crime, and she was also angry at the huge stack of nice letters that people sent to the court in support of Ulbricht.

Re: Ross Ulbricht granted a full pardon

#985

Post by etc-hosts »

mcv wrote: post #963
billiam wrote: post #915

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just can't fathom the lack of self-awareness of people who championed Ross Ulbricht's cause, seemingly because he looks like them, codes like them, and sat in the same public library they frequent or became associated with a techno-libertarian identity. Hundreds of drug and gun dealers are sentenced every week, some certainly unjustly. Where is the outrage for them?

My impression is that a big part of the outrage is directed not at the conviction, but at the disproportionate sentence. I'm not surprised or upset at all that he went to prison, but unless I'm missing a ton of details (and I probably am), 12 years is plenty for what he did.

It's the scale of the crime (he facilitated 10s of thousands of transactions), the judge clearly stated she wanted to make an example of him and give pause to anyone thinking about doing something similar in the future, and she was angry at the many of the letters of support Ulbricht's fans family and friends sent the court.

My memory is she started the sentencing hearing by disdainfully reading a few of them from a pile of them she brought to the court that day.

Re: Ross Ulbricht granted a full pardon

#986

Post by etc-hosts »

486683864 wrote: post #930
_yb2s wrote: post #798

I feel torn about this because it seems there was good evidence for attempted murder- and I cannot understand why they never tried him for that (seemingly larger) crime. However, for the crime he was actually found guilty of, the sentence was unfair and unreasonable. It seems they unethically sentenced him for crimes he was not even ever charged with. I'd also argue he almost certainly saved a huge number of lives wi…

There was literally no evidence of an attempted murder. Just an empty and unsubstantiated accusation.

The lengths the FBI went to in one of the murder for hire cases is interesting.

After Ulbricht ordered the hit on one of his forum moderators, the FBI visited him, took all of his computers, told him they were going to be "him" from now on online forever, had him "pose" in a bathtub where they hosed him off and doused him in ketchup to take fake trophy photos, had the "hitman" send the photos of Ulbricht, who famously commented "It had to be done."

Re: Ross Ulbricht granted a full pardon

#987

Post by etc-hosts »

arp242 wrote: post #346
mrandish wrote: post #181

This is wonderful. I've never argued that Ross shouldn't have served time but it's always been clear his prosecution and sentencing were excessive and unjust. The prosecutors asked for a 20 year sentence, which seemed disproportionate given the sentencing guidelines for a first-time offender and the non-violent charges he was convicted of. But the judge sentenced Ross to TWO life sentences plus 40 years - without the…

> Biden should have already pardoned Ross because that crazy sentence shouldn't have happened in the first place. Biden did commute the sentence of several other non-violent cases just last week or thereabouts, and Trump has been talking about Ulbricht for quite some time so it's not a complete surprise. I guess the whole "murder for hire" thing excluded him from the "non-violent" category. But how that got tacked on…

I was at the sentencing, I do not remember the judge mentioning the murder-for-hire cases. To me it was obvious that the prosecution defense and judge had agreed beforehand to not mention it. The judge gave plenty of other reasons for the harsh sentence.

Re: Ross Ulbricht granted a full pardon

#988

Post by etc-hosts »

rib3ye wrote: post #356
cogman10 wrote: post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish instead of criminalizing addiction we'd fund harm reduction centers and rehabilitation services. I would much rather the police be focused on stopping violent crime rather than these victimless crimes. Legitimizing drugs/prostitution makes is easier to regulate and ultimately make safer. Shoving this stuff into a black/gray market is what ultimately creates violent crime.

> I wish instead of criminalizing addiction we'd fund harm reduction centers and rehabilitation services. We tried that in SF, I was a supporter. Seeing it first hand with a with a family member in public school flipped me. Dumping money into people who aren't ready to convert back into tax payers (even in the most basic sense) while schools got the back burner was enough. Not to mention the tents.

I never did any drugs but when I was growing up, it was understood that you needed to keep your drug use somewhat secret, behind closed doors, hidden from the public, I expected there would be consequences from the police if I decided to do drugs out in the open.

Now I see guys doing extremely hard drugs out in the open on the street and on buses. it is a jarring. They're usually not trying to inject or exhale on me ( though the meth smoke guys on some buses don't seem to care ).

Re: Ross Ulbricht granted a full pardon

#989

Post by etc-hosts »

zik wrote: post #483
fsckboy wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

wasn't there evidence of hiring a hitman to commit a murder in furtherance of the Silk Road? that's not part of "the debt of running the silk road"

There wasn't any evidence that actually happened. It appears that it may have been fabricated by the same investigators that later robbed him of some millions of dollars worth of bitcoin. Then when it went to trial the murder-for-hire charges were completely dropped due to lack of evidence. He was convicted of: 1. Conspiracy to traffic narcotics 2. Continuing Criminal Enterprise (CCE) (sometimes referred to as the “k…

I think they were dropped because in 1 out of the 6 cases, the investigation was tainted because the associated government agents committed their own crimes, and also maybe but I can't prove it everyone thought that prosecuting someone who has been sentenced to 2 life sentences + 40 years is a waste of time.

Re: Ross Ulbricht granted a full pardon

#990

Post by palata »

alex1138 wrote: post #889
palata wrote: post #541

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I liked the way you wrote it, I could picture you sitting in the library, picturing the arrest yourself :-). The reactions remind me of a philosophy class I had, where the professor went for a thought experiment in order to explain an idea. "Imagine a world where ...". There was a physicist in the class who kept interrupting the professor, saying "well that's not possible because of how physics works". I would have a…

Imagine a world where I grab you by the shoulders and throw your smug ass out of the classroom!

You're not a physicist, are you?
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