Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging • Hacker News Board

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#981

Post by LawTalkingGuy » Thu, Aug 03, 2023, 8:50 PM UTC

rvcdbn wrote: post #165

tlogan wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand. But what is the solution? Just wait for them to all die? Here in San fransciso we have 3 overdose death per day. That is 40% spike from last years. In 2017 we had 222 overdose death for entire year and we reached that number by march 15h this year. [1] https://sf.gov/sites/default/files/2021-05/2021%2005_OCME%20...

The solution that seems most likely to work IMO seems to be a European-style welfare state. All drugs have long been decriminalized in Portugal and you don’t see that kind of thing on the streets of Lisbon. But I don’t see that happening any time soon in the USA.

> All drugs have long been decriminalized in Portugal

Portugal did not decriminalize use of drugs! Public use of drugs, and being uncontrollably high in public, is criminal and they use the court system to force people into voluntary rehab (the other choice is prison) where they use an evidence-based drug treatment system and up to a few years of job skills and counseling before releasing the person. Decisions are made by a panel of doctors and ex street-junkies who know the truth of the situation and what the addicted will say and do.

Portland Oregon on the other decriminalized the drugs - as in you can buy and inject anything in front of a cop and pass out in your own vomit in the middle of the sidewalk and the police can't even move you.

Regrettably they knowingly chose to reference Portugal as if they were following its advice while using the terminology to describe a completely different system.

> Actually one thing I would be curious to try is to substitute ketamine for opiates. It might work out that some people prefer it and it’s far less harmful on the body.

That feels like the joke about Freud trying to cure Cocaine addiction with Heroin and merely inventing the speedball.

What do you think of Suboxone? It blocks withdrawal symptoms and the further effect of opioids, making users not suffer or want more drugs during the process. At the end, the user is not dependent or addicted, and is ready for actual rehabilitation.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#982

Post by LawTalkingGuy » Thu, Aug 03, 2023, 9:13 PM UTC

pugz wrote: post #577

atomicfiredoll wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had a friend who had tried several substances and thought they were above addiction... until they were eventually hooked on heroin. It's anecdotal, but having watched people (more than him) get addicted, I don't have much doubt that even people with a good life get hooked on bad drugs. Hopefully, as society becomes more honest about drugs and stops scheduling every drug as equally dangerous or criminal, friends lik…

This was me too. I had used many substances (cannabis, ketamine, benzos, cocaine + every other stimulant under the sun) and was able to keep them in my possession and only use them at most once every 4-6 weeks, and only ever in the company of others. This lasted for many years. I was arrogant and thought I was above addiction. I tried heroin and was addicted before I finished my 1g bag. I think your point about "stop…

> my 1g bag

How much did you end up using?

And did you notice it abstractly, similar to "I've been using food delivery too much recently", or did it have a physical or mental toll before you noticed?

Congratulations.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#983

Post by glonq » Thu, Aug 03, 2023, 10:00 PM UTC

seattle_spring wrote: post #657

glonq wrote: post #411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I fully support decriminalization of all drugs, as long as it's far away from me and from anybody else who is just trying to live their best life. Let's go build a 10-acre island that is full of free housing and free drugs for anybody who wants it.

Interesting, I feel the same way about MLM salespeople, Jordan Peterson fans, gun nuts, Elon Musk fans, and a whole other host of behaviors that are pretty objectively harmful. Actually, I don't at all, but see how asinine it sounds?

Your ideas are intriguing to me, and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#984

Post by lanstin » Fri, Aug 04, 2023, 1:35 AM UTC

seattle_spring wrote: post #643

selimthegrim wrote: post #474

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>You're delusional if you think the homeless problem is a bunch of software engineers who tried heroin once, and left FAANG to get high every day. Replace heroin with meth and FAANG with MS and I can definitely state it’s happened in Portland at least

You're claiming that a non-trivial part of Portland's homeless crisis is caused by ex-Microsoft employees becoming addicted to meth?

I have talked to a number of homeless folks (I tend to go to a bagel shop for breakfasts most mornings) and a few of them are former engineers, both software and hardware. A little untreated mental unhealthy, a divorce, loosing the job, and boom. A lot of engineers have various rough bits to their ability to introspect and be flexible and so on. Being unwilling to bend in ways to go along to get along, and once you are older and you get off the track of normal life, home, etc., it's excruciatingly difficult to get back on.

For the matter, the one person I grew up with that has been homeless had a math, physics and econ triple major from Duke. Also no drugs involved, but maybe some untreated OCD.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#985

Post by _8j50 » Fri, Aug 04, 2023, 2:03 AM UTC

dumpsterdiver wrote: post #746

_8j50 wrote: post #720

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shame works very well. I so hate it when people use "gay" to invoke some sort of a culture war side-choosing spell. The original comment is about feeling shame not being shamed. If you believe being gay is wrong the yes you should feel shame, if you don't then the question is not relevant for you. The original commenter is more right than any of us can conceive. So many societal problems would be solved if people had…

> So many societal problems would be solved if people had raised their kids to learn to feel shame. Trumpism, gun worship, climate change denial, post-truth mindset, anti-vaxx, treason, insurrection, racial hatred and discrimination,etc... As you say, shame works very well. I'm baffled as to why you would assume that people who hold beliefs different from your own would raise their children without leaning upon the v…

> I'm baffled as to why you would assume that people who hold beliefs different from your own would raise their children without leaning upon the very effective "shaming" mechanism.

It isn't an assumption, it is my observation. Those examples are types of people that typically (not always) know they are causing harm and even by their own standards their actions are immoral. The nuances of individual's beliefs matter, just not for my brief example. But also, these nuances end up being mental gymanstics created as a result of cognitive dissonance and self deception, to avoid self-confrontation that might result out of shame.

> You label all Republicans as "Trumpists" because they didn't vote for Biden. Give me a fucking break. Even the "Bidenists" aren't happy with Biden.

I did nor label all republicans anything but trumpists are either sociopaths or shameless people. Knowing the objectively observable acte of that man, you would have to create so many excuses and claim every fact before you as a conspiracy or "fake news" to avoid feeling shame for supporting him. Republicans as a whole (democrarts too in their own way) are quite the shameless insidious bunch, either willfully ignorant or intentionally malicious to their fellow man. Keep in mind, I am judging people here based on my own beliefs, but my argument is that any reasonable moral system (especially Christianity) that the people i listed hold agrees with my belief.

There are things, like cruelty for the sake of it or tormenting children that just don't give you any gray middle ground for excuses so you have to challenge reality and facts to allow your behavior to continue without shame.

> You are the one who should be ashamed, but you know all about that, right? Maybe you should take a break from trying to save everyone else, and talk to a therapist about your savior complex. You might discover that you need some saving yourself.

You don't know anything about me but yes, in my own way I have my own mountains of shame, I hope I am not being shameless about anything I did wrong. I am not saving anyone else, I only mentioned those groups you objected to because they cause harm to me or people i care about without feeling shame, I am merely reducing harm and danger to me and mine. Anyone that claims they don't need saving are too busy digging a hole they can't climb out of.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#986

Post by _8j50 » Fri, Aug 04, 2023, 2:05 AM UTC

hattmall wrote: post #729

_8j50 wrote: post #720

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shame works very well. I so hate it when people use "gay" to invoke some sort of a culture war side-choosing spell. The original comment is about feeling shame not being shamed. If you believe being gay is wrong the yes you should feel shame, if you don't then the question is not relevant for you. The original commenter is more right than any of us can conceive. So many societal problems would be solved if people had…

But why do you think people would / should feel shame with the things you listed just because you don't agree with them? I feel like most of what you listed is the type of people that do feel shame and actually incorporate that into their positions.

Those were people I strongly believe avoid shame. They cal everything fake news or a conspiracy. Every racist these days goes "i am not a racist? But..." these days lol.

They are very proud of their ways and proudly defend their self-deception.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#987

Post by _8j50 » Fri, Aug 04, 2023, 2:07 AM UTC

sunderw wrote: post #816

_8j50 wrote: post #720

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shame works very well. I so hate it when people use "gay" to invoke some sort of a culture war side-choosing spell. The original comment is about feeling shame not being shamed. If you believe being gay is wrong the yes you should feel shame, if you don't then the question is not relevant for you. The original commenter is more right than any of us can conceive. So many societal problems would be solved if people had…

You are saying > the thing so many of people with these views have in a common is they feel no shame about the harm they are causing. > If in your own opinion you did something wrong, you should absolutley feel shame It implies that the list of people you don't like think they did something wrong but refuse to feel shame about it. To me, all those people are not shameless - in the sense that they don't feel shame _at…

I didn't say I don't like those people, I said i believe they feel guilt yet avoid shame by using flawed reasoning and self deception. Those were just examples i thought would help sell my point to the HN crowd.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#988

Post by rvcdbn » Fri, Aug 04, 2023, 6:27 AM UTC

z0r wrote: post #897

rvcdbn wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many people do you know who work in harm reduction? How many of your friends are regular drug users? I’m speaking from direct experience are you? or are you just making assumptions that make you feel more comfortable?

You could just admit that you are oversimplifying things without trying to dismiss my credentials. I have experience. I haven't posted anything unreasonable in this thread.

You’re right, I get emotional about this because I see how much harm criminalization does.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#989

Post by rvcdbn » Fri, Aug 04, 2023, 6:32 AM UTC

rvcdbn wrote: post #133

tlogan wrote: post #121

I used to strongly support making drugs legal. I thought: this is a free country, you should be able to do what you want. But what I've seen in San Francisco has made me think differently. Most people who use drugs eventually end up not being able to live like normal adults. And no one willingly goes to get help or treatment. The problem will stick around because politicians care more about how things look. They'll s…

We have built a society where the best options for these people are to do what they are doing. Nobody starts using because they have a great life but they’re just curious what a bit of meth feels like and then accidentally get hooked. They do it because there’s no better life path open to them. It’s really a form of suicide. Criminalizing will make the suicide process faster and less visible to you. It won’t stop any…

I was wrong to say that “nobody starts using because they have a great life and they’re just curious what a bit of meth feels like”. The point I was trying to make was that many people do know exactly what they’re getting into and do it anyway because they also know they have nothing better to look forward to in life and this is really a form of suicide. I was wrong to suggest that this pattern fits everyone, it is indeed an oversimplification and I apologize for minimizing different experiences.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#990

Post by rvcdbn » Fri, Aug 04, 2023, 6:56 AM UTC

pugz wrote: post #577

atomicfiredoll wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had a friend who had tried several substances and thought they were above addiction... until they were eventually hooked on heroin. It's anecdotal, but having watched people (more than him) get addicted, I don't have much doubt that even people with a good life get hooked on bad drugs. Hopefully, as society becomes more honest about drugs and stops scheduling every drug as equally dangerous or criminal, friends lik…

This was me too. I had used many substances (cannabis, ketamine, benzos, cocaine + every other stimulant under the sun) and was able to keep them in my possession and only use them at most once every 4-6 weeks, and only ever in the company of others. This lasted for many years. I was arrogant and thought I was above addiction. I tried heroin and was addicted before I finished my 1g bag. I think your point about "stop…

You're absolutely right. I was wrong to oversimplify and claim that this is everyone's experience. I do think that it is the experience of many people who don't have families or support structures or any economic prospects. I completely agree that better education about the different levels of harm of different substances is incredibly important and lacking. I will say that while I don't know the stats on this, in the communities I am in meth has been at least as destructive for people as heroin.