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Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

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Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#981

Post by _vvaw »

bitwize wrote: post #964
_vvaw wrote: post #956

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the trans community stands with Keffals, a documented child groomer and provider of puberty blockers + hormones to minors behind their parents' backs? https://archive.ph/HY4hK Promoter (again, to children) of sketchy Internet pharmacies that sell hormones with anime lolita box art and labels that say “keep away from parents”? https://archive.ph/zZMRp

The trans community stands against doxxing, harassing, swatting, and stalking one of their own because of her gender identity and activist activities. Because they know, in cisnormative society, they'll be next. Of course, Kiwi Farms does not condone that sort of behavior (wink wink, nudge nudge). Once Kiwi Farms is down for good, I'm sure there will be Twitter bickerfests and slapfights about this and other issues (…

Over the past week I’ve read enough on and about Kiwi Farms to conclude that while “doxing” does happen there, as it does on Twitter and other websites, the claims of harassment and SWATing and users driving people to suicide are highly and cynically exaggerated. The evidence simply doesn’t support these claims, particularly the suicides:

https://archive.ph/JPHtM

The main issue seems to be that Kiwi Farms documents the actual, public behavior of many disgusting, pedophilic, embarrassing people on the Internet, some of whom are trans. Some of the people they document and laugh at are also neo-Nazis or alt-right. Some of the Kiwi Farms users are trans.

The willingness of many in news media and at companies like Cloudflare to take these claims of SWATing and harassment at face value with next to no evidence, or in the face of obvious sock-puppet posts to Kiwi Farms that are instantly removed by moderators, has been disheartening. It reminds me how r/againsthatesubreddit mods posted CASM to conservative subreddits to get them banned by site admins. I increasingly understand that the opponents of Kiwi Farms use the exact same tactics they project onto the site: doxing and SWATing Joshua Moon, harassing him and Kiwi Farms, spreading false information about the site’s content and activities. Their goal seems to be wiping evidence of child grooming, illegal drug distribution to minors, and other very bad and embarrassing behavior by their community from the web. They may succeed.

I hope reasonable members of the trans community can distance themselves sufficiently from these unstable activists. I hope people like Keffals have their unsavory activities documented and shared with a wider audience. I hope this mob of unscrupulous activists doesn’t succeed in controlling all speech on the Internet.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#982

Post by i5heu »

r721 wrote: post #101
tony-allan wrote: post #4

I'm very glad Kiwi Farms is gone. But as a thought experiment, would an IPFS based distributed website survive attacks of this nature? It could be pinned by individual users and gateways and accessed using browser plug-ins. [1] https://ipfs.tech/

I wonder whether "botnet hosting" will become a thing over time. I mean one could buy "malware installs", so theoretically one could buy "decentralized storage app installs" as well, something like Sia/Filecoin/Storj.

Filecoin/Storj are build strongly on reputation. A new node will not get data or important stuff. filecoin needs very very good hardware.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#983

Post by Y-bar »

birdboy2000 wrote: post #979
Y-bar wrote: post #941

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Freedom of association is enshrined in many constitutions and laws across the globe as a fundamental right. Why do you want to force people to associate with those they do not want to? I am member of a badminton club, we have a code-of-conduct. It contains things like: - Don't harass other players - Don't harass or be an ass towards refs - Don't litter it the gym, keep it tidy - Don't take performance-enhancing drugs…

and if people think your code of conduct is too harshly enforced they can and will go elsewhere, there are thousands of badminton clubs in the world. Different strokes for different folks. Trying to kick someone off the internet entirely is a completely different matter.

Nobody is kicking anybody off the internet here. Kiwi Farms are free to associate with anyone willing to associate with them, or host their own content. There are thousands of hosts. Different strokes for different folks. Why should anybody be forced to give up their free speech/association rights because you say so?

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#984

Post by r721 »

i5heu wrote: post #982
r721 wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder whether "botnet hosting" will become a thing over time. I mean one could buy "malware installs", so theoretically one could buy "decentralized storage app installs" as well, something like Sia/Filecoin/Storj.

Filecoin/Storj are build strongly on reputation. A new node will not get data or important stuff. filecoin needs very very good hardware.

Maybe a fork with some tweaks which is built specifically for this task will work? Anyway this is just an idea which I didn't see discussed anywhere.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#985

Post by amadeuspagel »

DFHippie wrote: post #970
amadeuspagel wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Using your speech to silence people" is very vague, "the destruction of their reputation and social network" and "lying about them" could refer to any case of cancel culture. These things are bad of course, bad for freedom of speech in a broad millian sense[1], but they are way too vague for cloudflare to ban any forum that has speech like this (which is any forum I'm aware of, including HN). [1]: https://en.wikisou…

The point isn't to prescribe behavior for cloudflare. The point is to show that "no censorship" doesn't provide a simple rule to follow in all cases. Speech itself can be censorship. In this case an entity like cloudflare needs to evaluate the particulars of the case, not apply a general rule. This is setting aside the mechanism of the censorship -- removing DDOS protection versus a harassment campaign -- the social…

> The point isn't to prescribe behavior for cloudflare.

No, that we're dealing with cloudflare, with DDoS protection, is the point here. If you want to run a forum where you ban speech that you feel silences people, that's great, but if you want to deny DDoS protection to other forums that don't have this rule, or don't enforce it to your satisfaction, that's very different.

> This is setting aside the mechanism of the censorship -- removing DDOS protection versus a harassment campaign

No we really can't set this aside. Removing DDoS protection directly makes it impossible to run any unpopular website. "Harassment campaign" is a vague term, that can be used (and arguably in this case is used) for any kind of persistent criticism, ridicule, outrage, doxxing - I see harassment campaigns on twitter every day.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#986

Post by curtainsforus »

tsol wrote: post #844
ajross wrote: post #490

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Maybe kiwifarms is all people say they are "All people say they are" is a site running coordinated harassment campaigns, including SWATing and bomb threats, though. Those are clear crimes. You can't seriously be arguing that CloudFlare or DDos-Guard or whoever shouldn't be allowed to choose not to do business with that sort of thing, can you? Like so many others here[1], your perception thing seems to be based sole…

How have they won court cases over this? That's what I don't understand. They seem to be doing illegal things, and yet there's no legal recourse? Honestly it's just a matter of time until they figure out some way to make it work. They're still on TOR which is probably enough for their most dedicated members. A legal ruling could really tie their hands

Individuals have sued them repeatedly and lost; the case I remember best is a woman called Melinda Scott. Here's an explanatory video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3iqkpN9a6q8

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#987

Post by curtainsforus »

MisterBastahrd wrote: post #926
_-david-_ wrote: post #878

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you believe your ISP should be allowed to drop you if you say something they don't like? What about your phone company? We, as a society, already forcing companies to support content they don't endorse.

Do you believe that Kiwi Farms should be able to set up shop in a restaurant and peddle their hateful shit? What about an airline terminal? We, as a society, are already denying individuals and organizations the right to disseminate information while using our private property when it doesn't align with our goals and beliefs.

What about the site owner's water supply?

The disagreement here seems to over whether Cloudflare is more like a restaurant, or more like a utility company. Given the ubiquity of DDOS attacks online, (and the fact that KF seemingly can't stay online without DDOS mitigation), I think there's a good argument to be made that DDOS mitigation might be more like a utility.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#988

Post by nootropicat »

irthomasthomas wrote: post #853
nootropicat wrote: post #682

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I know one thing, I will not be letting my children near discord Ten years later: why is my kid such a loner? Discord is the main persistent group chat service in the west (telegram seems popular in the third world except for China). It's used for virtually everything. Socially it's almost equivalent to cutting your kids from any online chat. Honestly, I would consider a total ban a mild form of child abuse.

Did you skip over my justification? That people are using discord to talk to kids about sex and DIY hormone therapy, and selling BATHTUB hormones to kids without their parents knowing?

Same reasoning works for banning internet in general.

Banning discord in general is of course less damaging, but the reasoning is similarly incorrect. It's an enormous platform for chats about virtually everything.

A general ban on discord is going to socially harm any kid in the west.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#989

Post by Bancakes »

cowtools wrote: post #376
Bancakes wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are no solid principles, times change and people change. Would it have made a difference if a month ago they forbade websites that dox people?

Since when is "doxxing" a crime? I'm told that the new york times has "doxxed" people on numerous occasions. Should they get taken down?

It doesn't have to be a crime, just a waste of bandwidth.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#990

Post by Bancakes »

cowtools wrote: post #484
redeeman wrote: post #418

Earlier quoted context omitted.

they doxxed a twitter user causing that user to face credible life threats and had to evacuate and go into hiding.. but they are a-okay naturally

If "go into hiding" means "not posting personally-identifiable information on the public internet", then that doesn't sound so bad. In fact, that's what I always do all the time on the internet, as should everyone.

Why should most of the internet change their habits due to one website? Or a handful if you include Chan's.
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