Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time • Hacker News Board

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#981

Post by ubermonkey » Tue, Mar 30, 2021, 1:11 PM UTC

at_a_remove wrote: post #270

ubermonkey wrote: post #101

I suspect one factor in the declining membership is shared with other mid-century social groups that have also dwindled (e.g., men's lodges): it's easier to find community elsewhere. For my parents -- born in 1940 -- church and men's service clubs/lodges were the primary areas of social interaction outside work. Dad ran his own veterinary practice, so his social interaction there was limited (I mean, everybody worked…

Men's lodges, fraternal organizations, and so on around here tend to have a religious underpinning of specific faiths, or seem to be charities of some kind with a connection to religion. As such, I think declining church membership would drag them down as well. I wonder if men's clubs exist which are neither, just completely secular. I haven't been able to find any when searching, aside from The Club, which technical…

It's definitely not true that all men's lodges/clubs were religious in nature. The big three service clubs (in the US, at least) are Rotary, Kiwanis, and Lions, and none of them have ever been religious in nature. (Though certain in the eras and areas where they had the biggest membership, the populations would be overwhelmingly American protestants -- but that's demographics, not organizational affiliation.)

Freemasonry may or may not be "religious" depending on your definitions, but has traditionally been a target of some faiths due to perceived conflict between the club and the church.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#982

Post by uncensoredjrk » Tue, Mar 30, 2021, 1:32 PM UTC

My Faith isn't based on rules--it's based on forgiveness. I believe that Jesus Christ died on the cross for my sins. Through that my past is washed clean and I'm able to directly communicate with my Heavenly Father and receive the gift of salvation. If you believe in Jesus Christ, it should change your behavior and you'll hopefully live with the fruits of the spirit: Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Kindness, Faithfulness, Meekness, and self-control. Religion is the various rules and bureaucracy that we put on ourselves. Churches that promote rules and not living out your faith shouldn't be supported. I don't participate in a religion, I try to live my Faith and love others. I choose to participate in a church that supports community and loving others. We aren't meant to go through life on our own, I firmly believe that we need community and spiritual support.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#983

Post by tenacious_tuna » Tue, Mar 30, 2021, 1:54 PM UTC

csisnett wrote: post #927

tenacious_tuna wrote: post #357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You'll have a broken moral system imposed on you either way I think this is a fundamental misunderstanding of how moral systems work, one that is perpetuated by the church. In Christianity, there is a specific "source" of morality, one that's (supposedly) infallible and unquestionable. This leads to problems when the infallible-unquestionable source of morality endorses things like slavery [1]: if it's unquestionab…

Christians do not advocate for slavery. Many laws of the old testament were for the jews living at that moment of human history. If you tried to establish a slave free society in a small nation sorrounded by slave owner empires how much time do you think that would last?

> Many of the laws of the old testament were for the jews living at that moment of human history

But those laws were given by a god who is all-knowing and all-powerful, so either

(1) said god was totally chill with slavery, which means its moral code is suspect

or

(2) that god was not all-powerful, and had to cede some morality to the dictates of the surrounding societies

or

(3) that god doesn't exist at all, and people just made up laws that fit their time.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#984

Post by at_a_remove » Tue, Mar 30, 2021, 3:14 PM UTC

ubermonkey wrote: post #981

at_a_remove wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Men's lodges, fraternal organizations, and so on around here tend to have a religious underpinning of specific faiths, or seem to be charities of some kind with a connection to religion. As such, I think declining church membership would drag them down as well. I wonder if men's clubs exist which are neither, just completely secular. I haven't been able to find any when searching, aside from The Club, which technical…

It's definitely not true that all men's lodges/clubs were religious in nature. The big three service clubs (in the US, at least) are Rotary, Kiwanis, and Lions, and none of them have ever been religious in nature. (Though certain in the eras and areas where they had the biggest membership, the populations would be overwhelmingly American protestants -- but that's demographics, not organizational affiliation.) Freemas…

"tend to," not "all."

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#985

Post by EliRivers » Tue, Mar 30, 2021, 3:46 PM UTC

jaywalk wrote: post #398

EliRivers wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

where is the pull for good old family values? That's a term that everyone interprets their own way, without even realising that they have different values to the person standing next to them; different people's "family values" can conflict in significant and very incompatible ways. So what are "good old family values"? If your young, unmarried daughter falls pregnant, should you cast her out or should you double-down…

Good old family values would discourage young, unmarried women from getting pregnant in the first place. That is absolutely not how society works today, so let's start there instead of your absurd example.

That is how many societies do work today, including societies inside the United States.

Absurd example? It happens every day. Every day parents cut their children off for falling pregnant in some way that's unapproved, and every day parents support their pregnant-without-permission child.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#986

Post by cwwc » Tue, Mar 30, 2021, 4:07 PM UTC

CedarMills wrote: post #196

cwwc wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get this, but wouldn’t the flip side be the brightness and relief that hypocrisy is being culled through this? Just a thought — but if you stop acting in a way (attending church) that doesn’t jive with what you believe, that seems to be revealing truth (something which all ca rejoice over, even if it’s a tough truth). On the other hand — if it is people that are losing their faith, that is perhaps different, and I…

I think the word hypocrisy is thrown around easily. I think churches have made mistakes and there are no excuses for them - but painting every single church and every single believer with a broad brush and calling everyone a hypocrite is intellectually dishonest. My personal worldview - at the end of the day, we're human and should see others as humans who make mistakes and give enough grace for them to try to improv…

Concurred. Absolutely.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#987

Post by cjameskeller » Tue, Mar 30, 2021, 5:08 PM UTC

ur-whale wrote: post #676

cjameskeller wrote: post #648

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. This was a major component in my switch from Protestant/Baptist to ("Greek"/Eastern) Orthodox. Having thousands of years of prior religious & philosophical discussions to draw from, as well as the experiences of people living under all manner of political regimes provides a much-needed grounding against whatever may be the current, trendy topics. And a direct result of that history is that the Church mandates…

This approach, "religion as an operator's manual to living one's life" is one of the very rare arguments in defense of religion I can vaguely resonate with. Unfortunately this argument entirely fails to support all the rest of the luggage, especially the metaphysical hokum: you can perfectly chose to live your life according to a set of rules that will help you (and others) without having to justify it via the existe…

Sure, but some folks like me also believe the ontological claims are true. For example, here's a sort of summary argument based mainly on the Aristotelian-Thomistic tradition: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1BfItu3Hm94okBn0dCJfRTjX6...

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#988

Post by simiones » Tue, Mar 30, 2021, 5:44 PM UTC

criddell wrote: post #82

simiones wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"religiousness" is not likely to be an inheritable genetic trait, so the children of a religious person may or may not be religious themselves, and vice-versa. The overall culture is likely to have a more powerful impact on this than solely parenting.

You don't think that the children of religious parents are more likely to be religious than children of atheists?

Of course they are, but the more important point is whether out of 100 children of religious parents, 0 or 10 or 90 or 100 are likely to be atheists themselves.

I would expect that in most secular cultures you'll see something like, say, 60/100 children of religious parents becoming atheists, and 90/100 for children of atheist parents.

These kinds of dynamics would still mean that overall, even if religious people are having more children than atheists, the population is still growing more atheist with each generation.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#989

Post by ScaredOfDying » Tue, Mar 30, 2021, 6:32 PM UTC

toomuchtodo wrote: post #752

ScaredOfDying wrote: post #530

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have any advice/resources for coming to terms with death as a non-believer? I've had existential dread for as long as I remember, but it's gotten far worse as I've slowly lost what faith I had over the years. There's a certain irony in being so scared of death that it ruins your life.

“Man is like a dog tied to a moving wagon. If the dog refuses to run along with the wagon he will be dragged by it, yet the choice remains his: to run or be dragged.” We’re all default dead in the long run, make the most of what time you have with whatever brings you joy and happiness. Choose to run.

I guess that’s the thing - I do choose to run every day.

I love my wife, I generally enjoy my job. I literally run in the park everyday. I don’t sit around in a dark room despairing (at least not until I go to bed).

I do my absolute best to get the most out of life. But the feeling of dread stays with me no matter what I do. It taints every memory and every waking moment. I can’t run from my thoughts, try as I might.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#990

Post by CoolCoolidge » Tue, Mar 30, 2021, 7:12 PM UTC

filoeleven wrote: post #855

CedarMills wrote: post #93

As a believer and someone who attends church regularly, this is sad but not unexpected. From my own personal experience - if the church cannot answer questions clearly, their members will look for answers somewhere else. A lot of churches unfortunately are so elementary in their teaching or turn to "feel good preaching" (see Elevation Church). The longterm effect is that a person ends up being tired of getting the sa…

The American evangelical movement is particularly rabid, and subscribes overwhelmingly to Christian nationalism. It is entirely too mixed into politics, and is trying to create a theocratic state where “everyone must live like Christians (for my definition of Christian).” One of the high points for me regarding religion in the past couple years was finding The Holy Post podcast. One host is Phil Vischer, AKA Bob the…

Replace "American evangelical" and "Christian" with "American muslim/Jewish" and "muslim/Jewish", and read what you just wrote. I think you will see how bigoted it is.