Live data from Hacker News

Facebook executives shut down efforts to make the site less divisive

wsj.com

981–990 of 1001 posts

Re: Facebook executives shut down efforts to make the site less divisive

#981
post #451

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It could have been a platform that enlightens, informs, and uplifts people instead of exploiting attention and anger, and profiting from misinformation. You can make money by making people feel good instead of bad. You can be rotten.com, or you can be Pixar. You have a choice. An organization with integrity will look at not just how much money they're immediately making, but whether they're pushing the world towards…

I did not respond right away, because I wanted to process it properly. I tried to imagine a world you describe and, I will admit, it does sound better than what we have. The problem, as is often the case with things that sound nice, however, is that we got here by not accounting for human drives. Those needs are not channeled in any way. For example, you say that companies ought not to seek maximum profitability in s…

That's the thing— it does not require any great leap of faith or imagination to conceive of things that work this way, because there are already so many examples in the real world. To build on a previous example, Jimmy Wales leapt further in conceiving Wikipedia, which had no precedent before it was created. The leap I ask for is therefore less.

Companies have to make money to exist and survive— but optimizing for money above literally all else is a choice. Again, the word for that is "greed", and it's optional. The leaders of a company can steer towards it or away from it; the company will follow where they lead, raise or lower itself to the standards that they (fail to) set. I worked for 10 years at a successful, well-known company which emphasizes quality over easy money, and it's maddening to see people claiming that such a thing is impossible. It's really not.

This is the exact perspective that I'm talking about. It's the perspective of the GM manager in the 1980s who'd insist— despite all the evidence to the contrary— that Toyota's worker-positive, lean production strategy is impossible. Not only is he wrong, but he'd be losing money because of his lack of imagination and his unwillingness to raise the bar out of the dirt.

It's the attitude of officials in second- and third-world countries, who see corruption, fraud, and abuse— the bottom of the moral barrel— and shrug their shoulders; they justify it to themselves, to others, to the public under the mantra "it can't be helped; the bar cannot possibly be any higher. It's too much to ask". Lo and behold, those countries are economically irrelevant, while countries with higher institutional integrity exist and dominate all around them. Lowering the bar doesn't help them.

Given all the examples available, "a company with high standards" is not "theoretical" at all. Saying so is but an excuse to insist on a pitifully low bar. And it's disappointing to me to encounter the perspective that "behaving with integrity" is beyond conceivable.

Re: Facebook executives shut down efforts to make the site less divisive

#982
post #891
post #791

Earlier quoted context omitted.

10 short years ago, huge swaths of the population were swayed to accept non-scientific statements like eating fat and cholesterol were unhealthy. I don't think Facebook is the problem here. How much exactly do you think Facebook ought to donate to independent researchers? Most tech companies donate ~0$ to such efforts.

> 10 short years ago, huge swaths of the population were swayed to accept non-scientific statements like eating fat and cholesterol were unhealthy. I don't think Facebook is the problem here. That's a horrible example, I don't think that is even remotely comparable to swaying the population into burning down dozens (hundreds?) of cell towers or accusing Bill Gates of starting the coronavirus pandemic.

Honestly far more violent and highly accepted behaviors are pushed through media outlets as sane opinions every day, like military intervention or straight up misinformation campaigns (see: the OAS, who for some reason never evaluates the election health of rich northern american countries, who should logically have released some statement about facebook right now, let alone all the primary voting discrepancies). Hell the NyTimes alone had enough fuckups in the 00s alone they should be on the shortlist for fact checking suspicion.

If facebook is wading into being a truth-teller, they’re going to run straight into government-media-academia social circles a la Pinker, Chomsky, all the punditry on TV, all the punditry in opinion columns (claims still need fact checking even if the result is an opinion).

Then, how do you deal with framing the presentation of verifiable facts with extremely ominous and sinister tone/hinting? You can do an enormous amount of damage just making untestable, unverifiable implications.

IMHO facebook is gonna get squeezed till they pop over this, either by blatantly having political double standards or by becoming a misinformation-based hellhole. The accessibility of Truth is much harder than people realize, and I don’t even think it’s fair to off load this responsibility onto facebook. People are just strangely ok with believing bullshit.

Re: Facebook executives shut down efforts to make the site less divisive

#983
post #955

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It’s also not possible to audit the code for anything unusual without taking it all the way back through all tools source, all hardware, down through the chips, through the doping in the chips, and even lower. Are you implying that since we can't audit every single thing, auditing anything is useless?

>Are you implying that since we can't audit every single thing, auditing anything is useless? No, I am pointing out that your statement implying one can know if there's anything unusual in the code can be found by an audit. It cannot. And most of the activity by big companies is not in code, it's in data, and "auditing" it is currently beyond anything on the near horizon. Some of the behavior is un-auditable in the H…

>No, I am pointing out that your statement implying one can know if there's anything unusual in the code can be found by an audit. It cannot.

This is so plainly false its silly. Have you ever heard of a code review? What do you think security researchers do? Google Project Zero. Plenty of things are found all the time at the higher (and lower) levels of the stack, even if something unknown remains deep within.

>And most of the activity by big companies is not in code, it's in data it is currently beyond anything on the near horizon.

Audits have no problem finding out what type of data is being collected (see PCI || HIPAA compliance). That would be a great start: for people to be made explicitly aware of all the data points that are being collected on them.

Re: Facebook executives shut down efforts to make the site less divisive

#984
post #955

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It’s also not possible to audit the code for anything unusual without taking it all the way back through all tools source, all hardware, down through the chips, through the doping in the chips, and even lower. Are you implying that since we can't audit every single thing, auditing anything is useless?

The entire stack contains enough holes as to be swiss cheese, auditing the open code means nothing if and when something before that code in the stack manipulates the outcome of the code. This is one of the reasons those big security issues in Intel CPUs the last few years were such a big deal. The entire stack needs to be reworked at this point.

>auditing the open code means nothing if and when something before that code in the stack manipulates the outcome of the code.

In terms of software security vulnerabilities, there is so much low hanging fruit making exploitation trivial. Even if a small team within an intelligence agency knows about a zero day deep in the stack, addressing vulnerabilities higher up in the stack that are easily exploited by script kiddies necessarily reduces attack surface.

However, what we're talking about here is not so much about security vulnerabilities, as it is about design flaws (or features) which have harmful effects on society.

Re: Facebook executives shut down efforts to make the site less divisive

#985
post #723

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Anecdotally of course, as one of those tech-folks who's got nothing against good and relevant ads. Be careful what you wish for. This TED talk[0] on persuasion architectures brings up some interesting moral arguments against this idea. If we generally accept that ad conversion is a metric of an ad's success, how do we handle the situation where people that are susceptible to addictive behaviors like gambling and co…

> how do we handle the situation where people that are susceptible to addictive behaviors like gambling and compulsive shopping are exposed to ads that exploit their condition? Ads like that used to be common. By your description, it sounds like they died out on their own.

How? Data-driven ad systems are built specifically to target people who have a high probability of conversion. The perfect person for such a system is one that would constantly (i.e. impulsively) buy or convert.

Re: Facebook executives shut down efforts to make the site less divisive

#986

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a violation of copyright under current interpretations of the Copyright Act. Companies like FB are well aware of this and send C&Ds to this effect every day.

That is shocking. How could something like uBlock Origin or Privacy Badger ever exist? They're doing the exact same thing; modifying the status of the page payload. Even BrowserName developer tools would run afoul of this. I can't fathom how these are materially different.

These projects continue to exist because no company has felt it's in their interest to bring suit, I guess. This is the type of thing that companies like to keep quiet, and if something like uBlock Origin isn't a pervasive threat, they won't risk publicizing and potentially losing the loophole. In particular it would be dumb to sue the EFF for Privacy Badger, since part of the reason the EFF exists is to fight such things in court.

Look up the "RAM Copy Doctrine". Basically, it means that every time data is copied within the computer's memory, it's a potential infringement. The HTML source of the page you've downloaded undoubtedly qualifies for copyright protection. Your argument would be an implied license to modify the page to make it suitable for display, but standard ToS will typically forbid any type of modification, removing any ambiguity into whether third-party extensions that modify the page may have an implied license. Your license would typically be limited to displaying the page as transmitted, and allowing an extension to read and modify the page would be an infringement.

I'm not a lawyer but I had a neat little SaaS business that was killed by a C&D along these same lines. Multiple attorneys reviewed and this is basically the summary. When I suggested that we do a peer-to-peer data transmission thing to avoid handling or transmitting any copyrighted content, I was warned that doing so could easily be interpreted as conspiracy and that it'd be best not to go down that route. Maybe someone else's attorney would say something different, but that's what mine told me.

Re: Facebook executives shut down efforts to make the site less divisive

#987
post #758

Hey, Facebook VP of Integrity here (I work on this stuff). This WSJ story cites old research and falsely suggests we aren’t invested in fighting polarization. The reality is we didn’t adopt some of the product suggestions cited because we pursued alternatives we believed are more effective. What’s undeniable is we’ve made significant changes to the way FB works to improve the integrity of our products, such as fundam…

Facebook says Trump's false claims about mail-in ballots don't break its rules.

You guys are a bunch of clowns.

Re: Facebook executives shut down efforts to make the site less divisive

#988
post #758

Hey, Facebook VP of Integrity here (I work on this stuff). This WSJ story cites old research and falsely suggests we aren’t invested in fighting polarization. The reality is we didn’t adopt some of the product suggestions cited because we pursued alternatives we believed are more effective. What’s undeniable is we’ve made significant changes to the way FB works to improve the integrity of our products, such as fundam…

guy_ro, no. After seeing Zuckerberg on the news tonight, I don't believe you at all.

Y'all "fact-checked" the Lincoln Project and barred them from placing ads on Facebook because they were critical of Trump. Meanwhile, the Zuck says he'll let anything and everything go with absolutely no fact-checking whatsoever.

Hypocrisy, thy name is Fuckerberg.

Your social media platform is quite literally driving the wedge into America, and you don't care. Your bottom line is PROFIT. That's it. You don't care about anything else as long as you avoid liability.

That's your job as VP of Integrity -- keeping Facebook looking "good" while it foments distrust between its users. If you were SERIOUS about integrity, you would have started cracking down on toxic groups and ideologies a long time ago.

You didn't.

Re: Facebook executives shut down efforts to make the site less divisive

#989
post #205
post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a programmer I am not responsible (and paid) for management decisions. It is also not my job to fix toxic culture in a company.

As management is responsible for bad management decisions, so too is the programmer responsible for implementing bad decisions.

Programmer can still implement bad decision very well :)

Re: Facebook executives shut down efforts to make the site less divisive

#990

You know what the internet needs? User agents. We've got this idea stuck in our heads that only the website itself is allowed to curate content. Only Facebook gets to decide which Facebook posts to show us. What if, instead, you had a personal AI that read every Facebook post and then decided what to show you. Trained on your own preferences, under your control, with whatever settings you like. Instead of being tuned…

Great idea, but who's gonna fund it?
Post reply on HN