Terminating Service for 8Chan • Hacker News Board

Re: Terminating Service for 8Chan

#981

Post by memmcgee » Tue, Aug 06, 2019, 12:48 AM UTC

Smithalicious wrote: post #959

abootstrapper wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People of color, and LGBT are demographics. White supremacy is an ideology (a reprehensible one at that). People choose their ideology, not their race, or sexuality. They are not the same thing. Third party businesses should not feel any obligation to do business with "dudes who blabber" about the murdering and hate of others.

I think this is shaky ground. Plenty of people think LGBT "choose" their sexuality (though I do not). White supremacists, religious people etc think their beliefs reflect objective reality, which is clearly not something they can choose. I think making "you chose this" a valid reason to censor/attack/etc. something opens the door to some pretty dangerous things, since it's not difficult to accuse things of being a ch…

Except there is an objective reality that LGBT people don't choose their sexuality.

Re: Terminating Service for 8Chan

#982

Post by themaninthedark » Tue, Aug 06, 2019, 3:55 AM UTC

wastedhours wrote: post #616

tyre wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This feels like a misunderstanding of the word freedom. Freedom in speech means that I can say what I want. It does _not_ mean that a hosting company has to host it or that a CDN has to optimize it or that a search company has to rank it or that an ad-network has to monetize it. Each of those players is free to do what they think is best with their time, resources, etc.; which often includes thinking of what "the pub…

Beautifully summed up by this XKCD: https://xkcd.com/1357/

So does that count for all the Brianna Wu's and Anita Sarkeesian's as well? All the outroar and backlash to the was called harassment and transphobia.

Re: Terminating Service for 8Chan

#983

Post by wyclif » Tue, Aug 06, 2019, 4:51 AM UTC

memmcgee wrote: post #981

Smithalicious wrote: post #959

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is shaky ground. Plenty of people think LGBT "choose" their sexuality (though I do not). White supremacists, religious people etc think their beliefs reflect objective reality, which is clearly not something they can choose. I think making "you chose this" a valid reason to censor/attack/etc. something opens the door to some pretty dangerous things, since it's not difficult to accuse things of being a ch…

Except there is an objective reality that LGBT people don't choose their sexuality.

That is not "an objective reality", it's an opinion.

Re: Terminating Service for 8Chan

#984

Post by feanaro » Tue, Aug 06, 2019, 8:15 AM UTC

Smithalicious wrote: post #959

abootstrapper wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People of color, and LGBT are demographics. White supremacy is an ideology (a reprehensible one at that). People choose their ideology, not their race, or sexuality. They are not the same thing. Third party businesses should not feel any obligation to do business with "dudes who blabber" about the murdering and hate of others.

I think this is shaky ground. Plenty of people think LGBT "choose" their sexuality (though I do not). White supremacists, religious people etc think their beliefs reflect objective reality, which is clearly not something they can choose. I think making "you chose this" a valid reason to censor/attack/etc. something opens the door to some pretty dangerous things, since it's not difficult to accuse things of being a ch…

No one chooses anything since their is no free will and people are biological automatons.

Re: Terminating Service for 8Chan

#985

Post by sytelus » Tue, Aug 06, 2019, 9:09 AM UTC

joncrane wrote: post #861

sytelus wrote: post #475

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Free speech is also a technological (or lack thereof) outcome. In 1700s, if you had a misguided evil thought, your chance of realizing full effect was still low because your thought must travel through multiple hops, each hop evaluating your idea and possibly terminating the propagation with some probability. So in societies without technological advancements, bad ideas and their damaging effects can stay contained i…

Good ideas were also suppressed under those conditions. Look at Galileo, Giordano Bruno, and Socrates. Allowing all ideas a fertile ground to grow and gain followers is important. Allowing individuals with a small social reach (e.g. live in a small, conservative, remote town) to access a wide range of ideas is important.

Yes, there would be false positives and false negatives. The problem is that false positive can kill people while false negatives often causes just short term inconvenience.

Re: Terminating Service for 8Chan

#986

Post by agent00f » Tue, Aug 06, 2019, 9:50 AM UTC

cambalache wrote: post #71

Who is going to deplatform Facebook and Twitter? After all plenty of shooters have used them too. Before the usual: " But 8chan is a cesspool of bla bla" Probably it is, but, either the users are doing something ilegal in the site and you close it if the owners refuse to comply with a legal request, or they are not doing anything illegal so they have to be left alone. For the "Free Speech is freedom from government p…

Ah yes, the enlightened centrist who equates white supremacist not welcome at businesses to ethnic minorities not welcome at businesses. You guys sure are the real victims here.

Re: Terminating Service for 8Chan

#987

Post by agent00f » Tue, Aug 06, 2019, 9:52 AM UTC

Smithalicious wrote: post #959

abootstrapper wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People of color, and LGBT are demographics. White supremacy is an ideology (a reprehensible one at that). People choose their ideology, not their race, or sexuality. They are not the same thing. Third party businesses should not feel any obligation to do business with "dudes who blabber" about the murdering and hate of others.

I think this is shaky ground. Plenty of people think LGBT "choose" their sexuality (though I do not). White supremacists, religious people etc think their beliefs reflect objective reality, which is clearly not something they can choose. I think making "you chose this" a valid reason to censor/attack/etc. something opens the door to some pretty dangerous things, since it's not difficult to accuse things of being a ch…

Can you explain why you're taking conservative bigots seriously?

Re: Terminating Service for 8Chan

#988

Post by tripzilch » Tue, Aug 06, 2019, 11:05 AM UTC

ausbah wrote: post #848

cambalache wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about communists, anarchists, marxists, mormons, people who believe there are genetically based cognitive differences based on sex/race. What about people who are against abortion, against weed legalization, what about people who consider cops to be a civilian death squad used by the rich to oppress the poor. What about people who think the US Army is an occupation force in every place but America. Is OK to disc…

I think it's okay to discriminate or moderate against a set of beliefs if you can show that the spread beliefs lead to the widespread harm of others.

> I think it's okay to discriminate or moderate against a set of beliefs if you can show that the spread beliefs lead to the widespread harm of others.

Does that also work if you can show that it doesn't cause widespread harm in every country with stricter gun regulations?

Seriously if you make statements like that, you ought to acknowledge the elephant in the room.

Re: Terminating Service for 8Chan

#989

Post by tripzilch » Tue, Aug 06, 2019, 11:22 AM UTC

Lazare wrote: post #15

On the one hand, I like the idea of a free, open, and distributed internet, where no one company or government has the power to control what is distributed or discussed. As the great John Gilmore said, more aspirationally than accurately even then: "The Net interprets censorship as damage and routes around it." On the other hand, we don't live in that world, and I don't know how well it would work in practice if we d…

But the power that Cloudflare has, is being one of the only services to offer protection against modern DoS attacks. If you're a somewhat controversial site (be it right extremist or LGBTQ or sex worker forum) you are going to be suffering these attacks. And then Cloudflare is your only option, or suffer being DoS-ed off line constantly.

Correct me if I am wrong, but Cloudflare is the only serious option against heavy modern DoS attacks, right?

Cause if you can go somewhere else, then sure Cloudflare do it's thing. But if you can't ... then that is way too much power for a random company to hold the gate over any kind of controversial group, anywhere on the political, cultural or global spectrum. Because we really needed another US corporation with runaway power, that'll balance things.

Re: Terminating Service for 8Chan

#990

Post by joncrane » Tue, Aug 06, 2019, 12:16 PM UTC

citruscomputing wrote: post #867

joncrane wrote: post #861

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good ideas were also suppressed under those conditions. Look at Galileo, Giordano Bruno, and Socrates. Allowing all ideas a fertile ground to grow and gain followers is important. Allowing individuals with a small social reach (e.g. live in a small, conservative, remote town) to access a wide range of ideas is important.

Just wanting to clarify -- are you likening the shooter's manifesto to the works of Socrates?

I'm not on the side of the shooters. Violence is extremely rarely the right option and I'm not aware of any mass shooting cases that were even close to "justified."