Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO • Hacker News Board

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#971

Post by Stingray42 » Fri, Apr 04, 2014, 4:54 PM UTC

wpietri wrote: post #740

gfodor wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I support legalizing gay marriage. But two things, first, supporting prop 8 does not mean you "believe a certain group of people don't deserve to live their lives like others." It means you don't believe that the government should recognize same sex marriages as marriages. There are a large gradient of views here, and on one extreme are the bigots who hate homosexuals and on the other there are people who simply have…

Putting money behind Prop 8 helped strip a civil right from gay people. It's technically true that proves nothing about Eich's beliefs. Heck, maybe it was Eich's personal Opposite Day. But does it matter? Even the bible says, "You will know them by their fruits," meaning that it's reasonable to judge people by what they do. The pseudo-gotcha about tolerance is ridiculous, an accusation of hypocrisy based on a straw m…

It's interesting that you refer to the Bible "you will know them by their fruits" meaning it is reasonable to judge people by what they do. Isn't that what we do when we oppose queer rights? You think it's OK to punish Eich for what he does. Bottom line is you justify your actions whenever you think you're right on an issue so what makes you think you're above someone who opposes queer rights.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#972

Post by katbyte » Fri, Apr 04, 2014, 4:57 PM UTC

Aqueous wrote: post #869

dopamean wrote: post #773

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is absolutely reasonable for gay employees to be concerned. As CEO of a company guides company policy about a lot of things that have nothing to do with writing code such as health benefits.

The link between any particular issue and what Eich's day-to-day responsibility would have been can be made as tenuously as we want. I could argue six-degrees-of-separation-style that every belief he held is relevant to his position. The basic point remains: we shouldn't be punishing people for holding beliefs that we disagree with, or coerce them into renouncing their disagreement in order to remain in our good grac…

> No matter how right or wrong the belief in question is, such policing creates a hostile environment where people are afraid to argue, debate, and say what they really think.

What if his belief was the blacks should not be allowed to get married? would you have the same opinion on this then? Would there even be a discussion?

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#973

Post by Borogove » Fri, Apr 04, 2014, 5:14 PM UTC

victorhooi wrote: post #838

Borogove wrote: post #712

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'll forgive me if I find expanding the definition of "marriage" in state and federal law to be a more reasonable approach than having to fight separate battles for each of the 1000+ legal rights and obligations which currently accrue to married couples.

Do you really think that's what this is about? Sorry, but I call fake. In many countries, you have the concept of de-facto relationships - you don't even need to be married, let alone have a civil union, and you have the same rights. So it's not like the courts couldn't do it - and in many cases have. However, this entire debate is purely one of ideology and semantics. It was never about "privileges" (whether tax, me…

The idea that homosexual relationships "have nothing to do with families" is simply laughable.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#974

Post by katbyte » Fri, Apr 04, 2014, 5:17 PM UTC

phaus wrote: post #729

amadeus wrote: post #478

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, you're just wrong. There is no language in prop 8 that has to do with the concept of civil unions. All it DID do was define marriage as being between a man and a woman. Any debate about marriage and a government's role in it is sidestepping the issue. It's a civil rights issue, and he chose to put money in an attempt to create discrimination for a certain kind of people. There's no excuse, he doesn't deserve d…

>Sorry, you're just wrong. There is no language in prop 8 that has to do with the concept of civil unions. Let me start by saying that I find both scenarios (pro-civil union/anti gay marriage and plain old anti gay marriage) equally reprehensible, but your logic is flawed. I'm an atheist married to a young-earth Christian, so I get to hang out with quite a few other young-earth Christians. The logic behind prop 8 is…

> The logic behind prop 8 is that if you clearly define marriage as a union between one man and one woman, with no exceptions, then you are leaving homosexuals with no other alternative than to form some kind of alternate terminology, such as the civil union.

I just don't get this, so please explain if you can as you seem to have some insight here: why does marriage have to be between a man and a women? Why can't gay people be "married"? Why does it affect anyone else if they do?

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#975

Post by shinratdr » Fri, Apr 04, 2014, 5:30 PM UTC

ralfd wrote: post #863

shinratdr wrote: post #848

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does it being popular have to do with anything? Popular bigotry is still bigotry. A donation in support of that bigotry is tantamount to bigotry. Finally, personal political views absolutely enter in to public debate when the views are held by a public figurehead that is in place to represent the ideals of an organization. This is how you change public opinion, by making it dangerous to hold these views and stil…

Oxford defines bigotry as "Intolerance towards those who hold different opinions from oneself". Which is exactly what is done to Eich, just by bigots from the other side.

Yep, I'm also bigoted against racists. The "you're bigoted against bigots" argument is as old as dirt, uncreative, and childish. Pretty much the "I know you are but what am I" playground argument tactic.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#976

Post by albedoa » Fri, Apr 04, 2014, 5:30 PM UTC

ralfd wrote: post #790

albedoa wrote: post #579

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How can you possibly determine which privately-held beliefs are "too bad" for you to deserve being employed. First, it wasn't his beliefs that lost him his employment — it was his actions. Second, while it's not always as clear, donating money to oppress a group in 2008 is an objectively abhorrent act. You know it when you see it.

But it passed in 2008. That was democracy. With your line of reasoning it would be right to fire a majority of California.

Democracies and majorities don't determine what is right. In fact, they have historically produced some nasty policies and held some nasty views, respectively.

> With your line of reasoning it would be right to fire a majority of California.

Firing someone for political activities is currently illegal in California, if I am reading the law correctly. Though I don't imagine half of Californians would be out a job tomorrow even if they weren't protected by law.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#977

Post by uchi » Fri, Apr 04, 2014, 6:04 PM UTC

wpietri wrote: post #963

wwweston wrote: post #778

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Even the bible says, "You will know them by their fruits," meaning that it's reasonable to judge people by what they do. That's reasonable enough. On the other hand, it's selective at best to limit the applied focus to his donations. He's spent a lot of time/effort working at and building up Mozilla, a Mozilla that has an equitable/inclusive code of treatment, a Mozilla where by several LGBT accounts his co-workers…

Sure. And I hope people were weighing that. It definitely meant something to me. But Eich promising to only work against gay people's civil rights in his off hours wouldn't strike me as enough if I were a Mozilla employee. It's not the kind of promise I'd fully trust. Really, I feel for Eich. If I had to guess, he's somebody who grew up around a lot of religiously-driven intolerance of gay people. And, like many smar…

>But Eich promising to only work against gay people's civil rights in his off hours wouldn't strike me as enough if I were a Mozilla employee.

Do you actually have a source of him saying that? Or are you basing it solely on his political donation?

If that's the case, you're engaging in nothing more than pointless conjecture.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#978

Post by clintonb11 » Fri, Apr 04, 2014, 6:31 PM UTC

katbyte wrote: post #974

phaus wrote: post #729

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Sorry, you're just wrong. There is no language in prop 8 that has to do with the concept of civil unions. Let me start by saying that I find both scenarios (pro-civil union/anti gay marriage and plain old anti gay marriage) equally reprehensible, but your logic is flawed. I'm an atheist married to a young-earth Christian, so I get to hang out with quite a few other young-earth Christians. The logic behind prop 8 is…

> The logic behind prop 8 is that if you clearly define marriage as a union between one man and one woman, with no exceptions, then you are leaving homosexuals with no other alternative than to form some kind of alternate terminology, such as the civil union. I just don't get this, so please explain if you can as you seem to have some insight here: why does marriage have to be between a man and a women? Why can't gay…

I am not saying I agree with this, but allowing gay people to be married gives them rights to adopt children. If you believe that the foundation of society is traditional family and that children should be raised, when possible, in a traditional family, you could see why someone would appose gay marriage.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#979

Post by hackinthebochs » Fri, Apr 04, 2014, 8:32 PM UTC

peteretep wrote: post #472

blisterpeanuts wrote: post #447

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My explanation? That they were in favor of what the Proposition actually was, i.e. insertion of the following language into the state constitution: "only marriage between a man and a woman is valid or recognized in California" I don't think a supporter of such a clause is automatically a "homophobe". It might just be that the proponents did not wish to make same-sex marriage an institutional reality. That's not an in…

Out of interest, had the language been "only marriage between a man and a woman of the same color is valid or recognized in California", would you have said supporters of it were racists?

This analogy is broken. There is nothing of substance that distinguishes people of different races that could rationally preclude them from getting married. There is a substantive difference between the sexes that could rationally limit what combination should be allowed to get married. The former opinion can only be caused by racism. The latter could have a few different sources besides "homophobia".

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#980

Post by clyderadcliffe » Fri, Apr 04, 2014, 10:30 PM UTC

Really sad to see Brendan go, I work full time as JavaScript dev. So to a certain extent I owe my livelihood too him. Really sad to see him lose his livelihood. Sad for Mozilla too, in their time they did a lot of good. I am thankful for the work they did in setting the Internet free from IE.

I don't believe in the kind of freedom Mozilla now stands for. I do not know Brendan's religious views. But I am a Christian, and as Christian I am opposed to gay marriage. I could not change my view on gay marriage without abandoning my faith. I could not read the Bible with any honesty and say it supports gay marriage. I cannot apologise for my view without apologising on God's behalf. Those demanding an apology from Brendan are perhaps in reality asking him to renounce his faith. By asking Brendan to step down, Mozilla has made a statement to me that as Christian that I am not welcome in their community. And by extensions nor are Muslims, Jews, Mormons, JWs etc.

Is Mozilla destined to become an echo chamber for those who support gay marriage? Is freedom just freedom to agree? Sadly whoever becomes CEO now is now second best on technical merit.