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US will ban Wall Street investors from buying single-family homes

reuters.com

971–980 of 1001 posts

Re: US will ban Wall Street investors from buying single-family homes

#971

The key word here is "Wall Street". And this statement is playing off a popular misconception around corporate investors buying up American houses. There has been a bit of a panic around "Investors buying up all the property!!!" With people often citing Black Rock and Blackstone as the main culprits. But most of the "investors" buying up property are individuals purchasing investment properties. Here's an article on…

The real contention is two fold: investors are collectively pricing out non-investors that would presumably actually live in the home they purchased, and among investors, institutional investors are both positioned to ignore market pressures and constitute too large a portion of the market, restricting even rental availability and affordability of the homes.

The reason institutional investors are blamed is that they usually have significant holdings elsewhere, and demonstrably will just wait out a market, taking loses they write off against their other businesses in the meantime, rather than actually participating in it. That ability to wait out the market on a finite resource rather than participating is usually otherwise only seen during antitrust market activities. The fact that many cities are considering adding significant vacancy taxes on properties, citing specifically this behavior as a driving factor, is pretty damning.

Additionally, it's not necessary for these institutional investors that are ignoring the market pressures to own a majority, or even that large of a share. Any portion they own and ignore the market for is effectively just removed from the market entirely and reduces the remaining pool of what's available. And the second-order effect is an overall damping of market responsiveness since they are simply refusing to respond to the demand half of supply and demand. I don't have the models to run the math myself, but it should theoretically be possible to calculate how much their involvement without participation impacts the prices as a relation to market share, and I'll bet it's a nonlinear result with a steep curve at even low volumes.

Re: US will ban Wall Street investors from buying single-family homes

#972
post #350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For affordability reasons, just build more housing. It doesn't matter how many houses anyone owns if you just build. more. housing.

This is obviously correct. Somehow people just can't accept the pigeonhole principle that if X people are trying to buy Y houses and X>>Y, a lot of them are going to be disappointed regardless of what laws you pass.

It's obviously incorrect. If X people are trying to buy Y houses, and 1 of them can always buy Y/2 houses, then you'll need to build a hell of a lot more than Y houses if Y is only equal to X. Right now in most places, Y < X, and a certain percentage of people can still buy many more than 1, so it seems like that's a real problem shouldn't continue during times of scarcity.

Re: US will ban Wall Street investors from buying single-family homes

#973

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not that simple - the problem is that those institutions are market makers. They are a tiny portion of the market, but a huge driving force in setting and manipulating prices, because their properties get leveraged, instrumentalized, and securitized, with derivative products, speculation, and all sorts of incentives that you don't normally want operating in the arena of housing. The things that they do have mass…

> They are a tiny portion of the market, but a huge driving force in setting and manipulating prices, because their properties get leveraged, instrumentalized, and securitized, with derivative products, speculation, and all sorts of incentives that you don't normally want operating in the arena of housing. Raising prices when you only have a tiny portion of the market does not work. People won't buy them when there's…

That's the problem, they don't care if people will buy or rent them. They literally just sit on them writing off any losses against other business units.

When enough institutional investors are all doing that same thing, the market suppply becomes restricted, especially in focused regional areas. It ends up indistinguishable from collusionary antitrust, though there's no actual communicated collusion so it's not technically illegal. In a normal situation like that, all it takes is a single participant to cave and drops prices to take advantage of the demand. But in this case the institutional investors can keep taking the losses indefinitely so no one ever feels the need or benefit to "break" first, and they can maintain it forever.

Re: US will ban Wall Street investors from buying single-family homes

#974

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is obviously correct. Somehow people just can't accept the pigeonhole principle that if X people are trying to buy Y houses and X>>Y, a lot of them are going to be disappointed regardless of what laws you pass.

It's obviously incorrect . If X people are trying to buy Y houses, and 1 of them can always buy Y/2 houses, then you'll need to build a hell of a lot more than Y houses if Y is only equal to X. Right now in most places, Y < X, and a certain percentage of people can still buy many more than 1, so it seems like that's a real problem shouldn't continue during times of scarcity.

That is an additional problem, but does not contradict what you replied to.

N_dissatisfied > max(0, N_for_sale - N_individuals_and_couples_buying)

When N_for_sale > N_individuals_and_couples_buying, it is still possible for N_dissatisfied to be > 0 for the reason you give. But N_dissatisfied must be > 0 whenever N_for_sale < N_individuals_and_couples_buying, even if everyone is limited to having at most one.

Re: US will ban Wall Street investors from buying single-family homes

#975

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> also deport the roughly 30 million foreign nationals that are currently in the USA driving up costs of everything. Nothing like middle school economics to help a debate along ... have you checked on the level of economic activity that is due to those 30M foreign nationals, and considered if there might be any downsides to them no longer being here (and presumably not being replaced by other foreign nationals) ?

Speaking of middle school mindsets; so by your logic, you should take in how many strangers into your home against your will? …and if your infantile logic has any value, why don’t we just cram every single human on earth into the USA, at your expense of course, right? What immature peasant-logic people as yourself don’t understand is that no, there is negative net benefit to the common person, while the common Americ…

> so by your logic, you should take in how many strangers into your home against your will?

You do realise you don't own all of America, right?

Nobody actually forced you to take 30 million immigrants into your home, because your home stops at your property boundaries.

I've seen this nonsensical argument in my home country, the UK, too. If you want to claim *all of [the USA]* as your country because you're a citizen of that country, then *any other [USA] citizen welcoming migrants into [the USA] is already taking all these "strangers" into their own home*.

(Works just as well if you substitute any other nation for [the USA], everywhere has people who think about their nation the way you think about yours).

> …and if your infantile logic has any value, why don’t we just cram every single human on earth into the USA, at your expense of course, right?

You should talk to more non-Americans. People like me, for example. I don't want to live in the USA. So I don't.

I mean, we'd physically fit quite easily, you've got most of a continent there, every time people like me suggest things you can do to make your nation better the collective response keeps being "oh but the population density is so low we couldn't possibly make public transport or cheap broadband work". We keep suggesting stuff like this because a lot of us just don't look up to the politics or the infrastructure you've got, certainly not any more, although the reasons are various and our interests are a dis-aligned from each others' as much as from yours.

> freeloading foreign nationals

The foreign nationals in the USA come in three broad groups:

1. People like Elon Musk, who took billions of taxpayers' dollars for self enrichment but are somehow really popular (today only with the establishment, but used to be more broadly) despite this.

2. People who do a huge amount of work in the construction and food industry, without whom the USA would collapse in about 6 months, who get all the hate because they're poor and undocumented (AKA "illegal") immigrants.

I'd like to draw your attention to the word "construction" in there specifically, as it's the other half of "supply and demand".

3. People in the middle with the boring work visas doing middle of the road work. By having in-demand skills, they command above-average salaries, but by commanding an above-average salary they drive up rent and house prices, with that money going to landlords etc.

Of these, only group 1 is "freeloading".

> squatter from your home is in fact justified

A squatter is a person who settles in or occupies a property without legal permission or claim to the property. Squatters live on land or in buildings where they have no title, lease, or right.

Ironically, this is how the USA got Texas from Mexico.

You claim 30 million. I don't know where that number comes from, as it doesn't seem to correspond to either documented or undocumented groups. Too big for estimates of undocumented (~10-12 million estimated) too small for documented immigrants (~40 million).

But it's false in any case, that number does not consist of squatters.

Re: US will ban Wall Street investors from buying single-family homes

#976
post #692

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just curious, where do you live that electricity is sold in an open market? Seems like a very strange setup.

Much of the US works this way, but individual consumers don't buy it that way. It's the level above that.

In other words it doesn’t work that way. The people who actually pay for the end product do not have the opportunity to apply market pressure by choosing a different source.

Re: US will ban Wall Street investors from buying single-family homes

#977

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Corporations" is meaningless in this context. If you want to own a rental home in the US, you should set up an LLC, both for liability reasons and because it makes it easier to deal with taxes and expenses. In the parts of the country I lived in, I've never seen big corporations own single-family rentals en masse. They usually go for apartment complexes, which are far more profitable if you have the capital to buy /…

This suggests that a single-family home is generally a bad investment. Maybe not if you're living in the house yourself (no renter-landlord inefficiency), but still idk. Could make more sense in certain areas where all the value is in the land.

It's segmented. If you don't have a whole lot of capital but want to invest in real estate, you buy a rental home or two.

If you do have a lot of capital ($100M+), you don't, because you can spend that money to build or buy an apartment complex that gives you something like 5x as many tenants per dollar spent. And is cheaper to maintain in the long haul.

Re: US will ban Wall Street investors from buying single-family homes

#978
post #905

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The effect: Rent goes up to cover the tax and margin is added, so the rent goes up more than the tax. Well-established effect and it applies to everything. A huge portion of all technological improvement/productivity gains and nearly all public investment money ultimately accrues to land rents which we then later just call "the cost of living." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_George_theorem

You are right to call this out, and is why the legislation for this idea will require a lot of thought. But the important part of this idea is that only the "big" landlords will have a significant increase in cost. In order for the economy to function there has to be ~ SOME ~ landlords. In my experience the random people that rent out their second property are usually good landlords, whereas the massive players treat…

As long as costs are marked up and passed on to the consumer, this is a non starter. Also, government charging more taxes just gets paid by the consumer. Money is fungible. Small landlords have significant advantages in their being able to be more agile, use different rent structures (i.e. rent to own, short term, barter, etc, leverage owner elbow grease to get more profit). The key is to make sure the big guys don't have a financial advantage.

> In my experience the random people that rent out their second property are usually good landlords, whereas the massive players treat people poorly.

I don't think there's really all that much of a difference. Small landlords have low cash problems (slow repairs, stupid disputes on damage deposits, etc...). Big landlords have policy and bureaucracy problems (we forgot you were disabled and removed the ramp from the deck, we evicted the wrong property).

Re: US will ban Wall Street investors from buying single-family homes

#979

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> e never seen big corporations own single-family rentals en masse. I just sold a house to a big corporation that owns about 12,000 homes. There's a whole industry for enabling these buys, opendoor, offerpad, etc... It's usually a wash selling your home as is to a wholesale deal vs. prepping your home and selling it, the difference being done about 60-90 days faster than via retail. The company I sold to already owne…

no offence but this kind of makes you part of the problem

I could have a principle and live in a falling apart money pit in a declining neighborhood or move to a brand spanking new home in a neighborhood on the way up.

Re: US will ban Wall Street investors from buying single-family homes

#980

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Opportunity cost means makes purchasing with a mortgage wiser than buying cash. $1000/month more for a few years is nothing compared to the property value increase of a $1M property

The stock market goes up more than the housing market. When considering the return on investment for a house, remember the property taxes, insurance costs, maintenance costs, repair costs, 6% real estate commissions, and so on.

Of course of course.
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