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The $25k car is going extinct?

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Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#971

Post by cogman10 »

hakfoo wrote: post #962
ceejayoz wrote: post #893

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But an EV has instant torque; going 0-99% in one second is probably unwise and not fixed by a capacitor. Software's what helps us not strip the rubber off the tires, or mitigates a slipping wheel on ice. It's a lot more than a capacitor at work.

This is a belt-and-suspenders thing. The gas pedal on an EV isn't connected to a passive rheostat gating the entire power output of the vehicle. It's a low-voltage sensor. A capacitor can swallow a transient of a 0.1v signal bursting to 5v for ten milliseconds, and then software converts it into whatever "sport mode acceleration curve" the marketing department calls for.

And I'd argue there's really no reason it couldn't be much more complicated than a rheostat and a static circuit to get the desired curve.

I can't find the actual circuitry, but I'd not be surprised if that was what the EV1 did in the 90s.

Software adds flexibility, it isn't a necessity.

Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#972

Post by blacklion »

benjiro wrote: post #501
blacklion wrote: post #404

I cannot reply to each comment which mention "EU" or "Europe", so I write this one. Why do you speak about EU/Europe as a whole? There is no such thing. I thought it is, but, now, when I moved to "Europe", I see that ti was illusion. Prices are different across countries. Do you think Poland, Portugal and the Netherlands have same prices? HA! Compare prices in the Netherlands and its neighbor Belgium. I didn't compar…

The "lifehack to buy car or motorcycle in Belgium and save 20%" is a Dutch only problem, as the Dutch Government makes car (and house) ownership extreme expensive. There is a reason why so many better off Dutch people buy properties and cars across the border, live in Belgium or Germany, and travel each day to work in the Netherlands. For the rest of the EU, you can buy a Polish car, and register it in Germany for a…

I understand, that USA is not homogeneous too!

> Have you ever left the Netherlands?

Rather no, as I'd moved to the Netherlands 2.5 years ago from outside of EU and don't have any rights to work outside the Netherlands :-)

It is not strict "No" because I've spent a lot of time (like, more than a yer on the span of 10 years, so more than month per year) in Germany on my previous work (in "business trips") and can compare everyday/household activities, but not bureaucratic or legal side of life, of course.

What I could compare is my experience as immigrant in the Netherlands with experience of my friends with same background as immigrants in Germany (lot of my friends had moved to Munich and Berlin same time I'd moved to Amsterdam). And difference is striking (in favor of the Netherlands). My experience with banks, IND (immigration department), Gemeente (municipality) and now even with mortgage (Which is cheaper than rent!) is much, much smoother that same experience of all my friends who choose Germany. Mortgage especially: no friends of mine could get approve for mortgage in Germany, even some of them who have salary significantly large than mine (like, x1.5 larger).

Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#973

Post by Glyptodon »

tlogan wrote: post #884
Glyptodon wrote: post #878

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't speak to the specific years, but there's no doubt that a fair number of small, less expensive, cars have been knocked off - the Rio, the Prius C, the Fiesta... I think there are more than just those (though maybe some of it is lineup consolidation, considering the eventual Kia K3). At the same time, some of the remaining options have had (IMO) huge MSRP hikes. But you are right that a lot of the price increas…

> less expensive, cars have been > knocked off - the Rio, > the Prius C, the Fiesta.. You are incorrect. Prius C in 2005 was $21,510 (not really "less expensive") and that is about $34,827.67 in 2025. (See: https://www.kbb.com/toyota/prius/2005/ ) And in 2025 Prius starts from $28,350 (see: https://www.toyota.com/prius/ ) So this narrative that there are no more cheap cars is incorrect.

I never referenced 2005. Prius C was ~$19k in 2012. It didn't have a 2005 model.

You are confusing vehicles.

Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#974

Post by whycome »

milesrout wrote: post #109
whycome wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s interesting how the language allows a weird cognitive out. It’s not debt, it’s a mortgage and they ‘own’ the home.

Nobody said it isn't debt. The difference is that it is debt that makes sense: you can't realistically buy land without it, and houses tend to appreciate so the interest costs are less of a problem - they just represent the time value of money. Most other debts people incur personally are to buy things they could save for, which go down in value. Like cars.

That’s the out. I’ve seen many people explain what their debts are and don’t think of their mortgage as one.

Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#975

Post by potato3732842 »

const_cast wrote: post #949
BanterTrouble wrote: post #799

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The more you try to force this stuff. The more of reaction in the opposite direction you will get.

From what I've seen with regulation this isn't the case, rather the opposite is true. The more we force it, the more understood it becomes and eventually it fades into the background and nobody cares. We've already had this exact conversation in the 80s with seatbelts. Believe it or not, there were a lot of good arguments against seatbelts. And they were genuinely believed. And they were popular. And, they are now we…

Seatbelts on new cars is on a wholly different level than "I'm gonna force existing vehicles to take mandatory upgrades at great cost because F you". The level of public compliance you're likely to see with the latter would make the people removing emissions systems from diesels look like good little goose stepping in line central europeans.

Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#976

Post by dessimus »

polski-g wrote: post #800
__s wrote: post #606

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rearview cameras are effective: https://www.iihs.org/research-areas/bibliography/ref/2130 I agree with having simpler SKUs, but rearview camera is not where to start

Funny story about this. There was a woman who backed over her own kid in the driveway. For some reason, she was not imprisoned for vehicular manslaughter. So instead of not being in prison, she spent the next half decade lobbying congress to make backup cameras mandatory. And it happened. So now everyone's car costs $3k more. It would have been cheaper to put her imprison than impose a $3k cost per every car sold in…

You do not think a mother killing her own child is punishment enough? It's very unlikely she intentionally planned to kill her child in this manner to cover it up as an accident.

Besides backup cameras have use beyond just making sure a child is not behind you, such as assisting with parking, or seeing if there is oncoming traffic when there is a larger vehicle parked next to you.

Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#977

Post by smeej »

DyslexicAtheist wrote: post #741
smeej wrote: post #550

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do these even still exist? And is it reasonable to get one road-legal somewhere like the U.S. for less than the cost of buying one (once you assign at least some value to your time)?

I'm not in the US so no idea ... but according to answer in Google: > All Caterham models are imported as rolling chassis. They are street legal in the U.S. under EPA kit-car regulations and can be registered through processes specific to individual states. source https://www.edmunds.com/car-news/2015-caterham-seven-360-sta...

So, no, then? Even before valuing your labor at anything, they're more expensive than a lot of cars that come assembled.

Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#978

Post by EasyMark »

BanterTrouble wrote: post #597
bumby wrote: post #500

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some of those “useless” sensors like tire pressure or backup camera are required by law. Even if you get a bare bones hatchback (manual transmission, manual locks, manual windows etc.) they’ll be forced to include those.

The tyre pressure sensor you can make an argument to be required by law as uneven tyre pressures can negatively effect handling. However the backup camera being required by law is absolutely ridiculous. You can just either use the mirrors or turn your head.

Yep, I always agreed with backup sensors but a camera is overkill.

Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#979

Post by theropost »

Just tossing in my two cents - half the $25K cars people are asking for do exist, or did, but we’re basically banning them from the country with tariffs. It’s like we’re saying, “nah, we don’t really want cheap cars.”

Look at something like the Dolphin from China - it’s going for $8K–$9K USD over there. Ship a whole fleet of them and you’re still well under $25K. And we’re not talking junkers either - these are electric, decent build quality, ~300km range. Like... what exactly are we protecting here?

Feels like we’re pricing affordability out of the market on purpose.

Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#980

Post by Infinity315 »

polski-g wrote: post #800
__s wrote: post #606

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rearview cameras are effective: https://www.iihs.org/research-areas/bibliography/ref/2130 I agree with having simpler SKUs, but rearview camera is not where to start

Funny story about this. There was a woman who backed over her own kid in the driveway. For some reason, she was not imprisoned for vehicular manslaughter. So instead of not being in prison, she spent the next half decade lobbying congress to make backup cameras mandatory. And it happened. So now everyone's car costs $3k more. It would have been cheaper to put her imprison than impose a $3k cost per every car sold in…

A similar argument could be made for any safety feature that adds cost to vehicles--literally, all of them. If a death is preventable and adds on a relatively inconsequential amount to the cost of a vehicle, then it is the morally correct choice optimize for safety.
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