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IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

haaretz.com

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Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#971

Post by edanm »

like_any_other wrote: post #970
edanm wrote: post #744

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Would you consider ethno-nationalists of other nations (far) left, based on (speculating) their economic/women's rights/LGBT/other social stances? If your implication is that I'm an ethno-nationalist, I don't think that characterizes Israel or my thoughts about it, however much "ethnostate" is a favorite slur of people to use against Israel.

If you're not an ethno-nationalist, would you be okay with Jews becoming a minority in Israel? The usual retort is that you can't because all your neighbors hate you - but there's no requirement immigrants come from neighbor countries, as immigration to England, Germany, and France shows.

I think that's a valid question.

The answer is - no, I wouldn't want Jews being a minority in Israel; I think Jews need at least one homeland where they are a majority, especially given how Jews have been treated throughout history. But also, it's complicated, and really depends on how we get there.

France, US, England etc allow immigration. But all of them put caps and conditions on immigration. All of them also have fierce internal debates around the topic of immigration, because of the fear of a fundamental change in the character of the country.

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#972

Post by immibis »

mikrotikker wrote: post #889
FireBeyond wrote: post #479

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just like several months ago, “we advise Gazans to move to southern Gaza as operations intensify in the north”. Within days: “Israeli bombing of southern Gaza intensifies 80%”.

You don't understand military ops. By announcing like this they can see the Hamas operatives expose themselves as they start moving, preparing like little ants and bomb them - not civilians.

If the whole point is to enable them to bomb Hamas and not bomb civilians, why did they bomb so many civilians? This is prima facie absurd.

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#973

Post by darkoob12 »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #620
alkhatib wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those things you described are also war crimes. Calling it sophisticated does not change that fact.

> Those things you described are also war crimes No, it’s war. Targeted killing of a military scientist is war. Gunning down civilians trying to get food is a war crime. If we start labelling all war as criminal, the term loses all meaning.

How about killing a scientist that they claim is trying to make a bomb with 15 members of his family and several neighbors including children under age 10.

This claim is not proved. In Europe there is no capital punishment for mass murders but Israel can kill anyone they want with their family without trial or even conclusive evidence and no one can condemn it.

If you do it with a crude hand made bomb it is called terrorism but if you do it with F35 it is called self-defense.

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#974

Post by hermitcrab »

egisspegis wrote: post #946
hermitcrab wrote: post #210

Is anyone surprised at horrific behaviour by Israel and the IDF at this point? Every country has a percentage of right wing psychopaths. Unfortunately, they seem to be running the government in Israel. Israel's intended end game seem to be to make Gaza completely uninhabitable, so that the Palestinians are forced to leave, then Israel can grab the land. A bit like they are doing in the West Bank, but on turbo mode. H…

> Israel's intended end game seem to be to make Gaza completely uninhabitable, so that the Palestinians are forced to leave In a context where hamas declared (multiple times) that they will repeat October 7 forever, how is this a bad outcome for Israel? Why it doesn't make sense to you that Western states are supporting Israel? It would be baffling (for me at least) if any state in the world would deal with terrorist…

>Why it doesn't make sense to you that Western states are supporting Israel?

Because they are supporting the destruction and displacement of an entire people. Only a tiny percentage of whom were involved in the Hamas atrocity. I don't want my country supplying bombs that are going to be dropped on Palestinian hospitals, universities and residential areas.

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#975

Post by lenkite »

neepi wrote: post #659
edanm wrote: post #626

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll provide context too - I'm a Jewish Israeli. I'd probably be considered left (or even far-left) by Israeli standards, but I'm in the "pro-Israeli" camp as conventionally understood online. This Haaretz article is very troubling. To the extent it's accurate, there's not much question that it reflects war crimes. A few thoughts: 1. The article itself says there is an ongoing investigation into some of these accusat…

I don't like getting involved in political threads but on this I have to. All information presented is mostly unverified testimony printed verbatim by the press from untrustworthy sources on both sides. It's difficult to tell what is fact and what is not. A lot of early reports in this war turned out to be false information and the rush to immediate news notification rather than quality journalism means that the head…

> All information presented is mostly unverified testimony printed verbatim by the press from untrustworthy sources on both sides.

Why do you say its "unverified" ? The commander in question: Brigadier General Yehuda Vach is formally under investigation for several crimes already: https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-said-to-launch-probe-into-...

This nutcase general has faced consistent accusations from soldiers under his own command over the last year for over a dozen incidents alone. What is your holy threshold for evidence ? How can you "wait and see" if the press is not allowed at the food distribution site ? Basically, you are saying "wait and sweep it under the carpet".

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#976

Post by peppers-ghost »

egisspegis wrote: post #943
aucisson_masque wrote: post #879

I know it’s an overly simplified view but it’s becoming more and more of a reality, Israel is the 21th century nazi. Yeah it’s not aryan but israelian race that is superior to the Arabians, what’s the difference ? They don’t send them in camp, they just destroy completely their land, demolish and populate with israelian. What’s the difference ? A family without home and earning is as good as dead. There is still some…

Imagine you're the leader of Israel. October 7 happens. And there's a multiple declarations from hamas, that they will repeat it forever, given a chance. What do you do?

Maybe consider why the people your country has tortured for 70+ years has a dislike of you. October 7th was not the beginning of history.

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#977

Post by mhb »

bigyabai wrote: post #964
mhb wrote: post #951

GHF discloses 12 of its local staff members murdered by Hamas, others tortured in Gaza https://www.jpost.com/middle-east/article-859425

...justifying what, exactly? Increased suffering? Another Hannibal Directive?

Primarily the conclusion that your understanding of the situation is about as nuanced as a brick's.

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#978

Post by MrSkelter »

neepi wrote: post #659
edanm wrote: post #626

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll provide context too - I'm a Jewish Israeli. I'd probably be considered left (or even far-left) by Israeli standards, but I'm in the "pro-Israeli" camp as conventionally understood online. This Haaretz article is very troubling. To the extent it's accurate, there's not much question that it reflects war crimes. A few thoughts: 1. The article itself says there is an ongoing investigation into some of these accusat…

I don't like getting involved in political threads but on this I have to. All information presented is mostly unverified testimony printed verbatim by the press from untrustworthy sources on both sides. It's difficult to tell what is fact and what is not. A lot of early reports in this war turned out to be false information and the rush to immediate news notification rather than quality journalism means that the head…

The lack of journalism in this conflict is a direct result of Israel forbidding press access and their targeting of Palestinian and other journalists. This deliberate effort enables them to then criticize the reporting which is done and cast doubt over sources.

Since October 7th sources from within Palestine have been accurate regarding deaths and actions. Often being attacked first and then quietly acknowledged later.

There is no reason to doubt the reporting of Israel’s paper of record, which though considered left wing writhing Israel, supports Netanyahu’s attacks on Gaza and applies rigorous journalistic standards.

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#979

Post by ChadNauseam »

pcthrowaway wrote: post #961
ChadNauseam wrote: post #583

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Most want it replaced with a secular state where everyone has equal rights. I believe that this is true of most of the people you've worked with. However, polling in the West Bank and Gaza finds that to be a fairly unpopular position. Quoting https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/what-do-... : > These numbers are not the same as popular support for a single state “from the river to the sea” with equal…

> I believe that this is true of most of the people you've worked with. However, polling in the West Bank and Gaza finds that to be a fairly unpopular position Late response on my part, but it sounds like we're mostly in agreement. I will add that I think what people would accept is different from what they will tell interviewers they want. I agree that there will be antisemitism everywhere, and as a Jewish person do…

> I'll also say that the prejudice of the oppressed shouldn't be seen the same as the prejudice of the oppressor. > > If a slave in the U.S. in 1840 believed white people were inherently incapable of empathy, I imagine that the only people focusing on their "anti-white racism" would be doing so to defend the status quo of slavery.

I understand the circumstances that lead Palestinians to be antisemitic. That said fair, the person you responded to said this:

> the entirety of the surrounding populations want them dead

I admit that it's a ridiculously hyperbolic comment, but most of Israel's surrounding countries do have an environment that's extremely inhospitable to jews and that can't really be attributed to Israel oppressing them all. They were ethnically cleansed from nearly every other country in the middle east - I think that just as we can understand why Palestinians ended up antisemitic, we can understand why jews in Israel ended up being uncomfortable with the idea of Israel not being an explicitly jewish state. Two wrongs don't make a right, but to make any progress towards a single state solution with equal rights for everyone, Israelis will need to be convinced that it won't result in a "two wolves and a sheep voting on dinner" situation.

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#980

Post by dash2 »

arandomusername wrote: post #166
dash2 wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> First, Hamas are openly genocidal terrorists Israel is the one actually committing a genocide though. > the claim that Mossad funded ISIS is antisemitic propaganda, on the face of it. Is that why ISIS apologised after accidentally attacking IDF? https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/isis-is...

Needless to say, that link doesn't prove the claim - not even close. So again, stop spreading antisemitic propaganda.
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