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Every company should be owned by its employees

elysian.press

971–980 of 1001 posts

Re: Every company should be owned by its employees

#971

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, but it's very probable li2uR3ce bought things that were portrayed as being much better than they actually were. These days "profitable" for the seller rarely equates with "good value" for the buyer.

Most of what I buy is repeat purchases. If they weren't worth the money, I wouldn't buy them. Isn't it the same for you?

Feels like a false dichotomy? Brand loyalty fluctuates over time and by brand, market, etc. For example, cars are probably the largest repeated purchase in America, and car brand loyalty is nowhere as high as it once was:

https://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/21/business/21auto.html

Answers to your question are nuanced, and fortunes are exchanged in purchases like cars even if customers aren't loyal next purchase(s)

Re: Every company should be owned by its employees

#972
post #528

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are some corporate votes that you feel wider employee ownership would have improved?

Lindy Fiorentina fucking up HP. Boeing all over. I'd hope to see employee-owners counteract short-termism

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carly_Fiorina ?

Re: Every company should be owned by its employees

#973
post #548

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Zuckerberg doesn't get to do what he wants. He's in meetings constantly and rarely has a free moment

> Zuckerberg doesn't get to do what he wants. He's in meetings constantly and rarely has a free moment This argument of Conclusion: $RichPerson doesn't get to do what they want. Premise: They're under constant obligation to $MoneyMachine is both unsound and invalid. The premise is wrong: at that levels of wealth, the obligation is not real, it's opt-in and you can opt-out at any time. The conclusion is wrong too: At…

Zuckerberg is a famous person though, and famous people can't go to places which are sufficiently open to the public without causing major issues.

A random billionaire nobody knows might walk around the Colosseum undetected, but try doing that with a profile like Zuckerberg's.

Also, there is the personal security concern. If you are rich, you have a lot of ability to pay kidnappers of you and your family.

There is the story that shortly after Pichai became Google CEO, he walked around a conference and he barely got recognized, but if you stay in the limelight for long enough, people recognize you.

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/mathonan/searching-for-...

Re: Every company should be owned by its employees

#974
post #810

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you get out of "owning" shares that you can't sell and that have no market price? Why would someone want this instead of just being paid cash for services rendered by someone else who's bearing all the risk?

time preference slash discounting. so not sure what you mean by "have no market price" bezos is worth XX billion, but not if he tries to sell it all at once

If the shares can't be sold, there's no market for them, hence no market price.

Re: Every company should be owned by its employees

#975

I’ve worked for two companies that had ESOPs while they were privately traded. In both cases, the companies were sold to larger corporate entities that promptly got rid of the ESOP. Not that it is all that bad. One sale happened after I left the company. The sale of the company included the shares owned by employees through the ESOP. So for one sale, I got several tens of thousands of dollars (hadn’t been part of the…

Thanks for sharing your experiences. Very curious to ask a few questions:

How was your experience being an employee-owner at either one of these companies? Did you receive any transparency of the ESOP plan (distributions, allocations, etc.)?

For both companies, how did you receive the funds once the companies were sold to the larger corp companies (cheques, direct, etc.)?

Re: Every company should be owned by its employees

#976
post #860

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They don't need to be better. In fact they just need to be 1/5th as good, and then it's worth it. Usain Bolt can run 100m in around 9.58s, and gets paid a lot for that ability (indirectly via sponsors etc). Assume I can run half as fast, say 100m in 19s; do I 'deserve' half of Bolt's fame and half of his sponsorships? Similarly, you can't hire five 20% generals to put in charge of your army, and expect the same res…

I would agree that pay not being proportional is common because as you get closer to the skill ceiling the job becomes more difficult. You need more amount of effort/expertise/knowledge per unit of skill. However, the jobs you listed are creative jobs. Not methodical ones. A filmmaker, truly, can never be replaced because he is his brain. He invented worlds nobody else could. A CEO, however, does not make products ge…

> A CEO, however, does not make products generally. Nor does he come up with new things. He's a face, a leader, and not much beyond that. He could easily be replaced with an algorithm - if humans were receptive to that. They're not, unfortunately. So for now we need a warm body. Who that body actually is... meh, not really important. Best case, pick someone tall, white, and handsome. That usually works out.

And yet, we see companies opt for highly paid CEOs.

Sure, you can claim that boards (or whoever picks CEOs) to be all in cahoots with each other. But we also don't see greedy, activist investors racing each other to force companies to replace highly paid CEOs with the kind of anonymous dolls you describe; even though they are otherwise quite happy to clash with incumbent management, and even replace them wholesale, when they get control. Usually with some other highly paid and experience people.

Do you have any hypothesis as to why?

> I would agree that pay not being proportional is common because as you get closer to the skill ceiling the job becomes more difficult. You need more amount of effort/expertise/knowledge per unit of skill.

I'm not sure that's the right argument to make. I can't look into Usain Bolt's mind, but I don't think he'd be paid any less, even if hypothetically his running wouldn't take him any effort at all?

For the other two (expertise and knowledge), how would you define them in such a way that your statement is not circular?

I tend to see this as more of a case of marginal contribution. If you have a big, complicated machine that needs a tiny screw somewhere to work, and a normal screw costs 5 cents, but there's a fancy screw that enables the whole machine to be 1% more productive, the fancy screw might be worth up to ten million dollar a year, if your machine's output goes from 1 billion dollars a year to 1.01 billion dollars a year.

(I say 'up to', because in practice it depends on the supply of fancy screws. If there are lots of suppliers in the market, competition will drive their price down to close to production costs, even if they still give you ten million dollar in increased productivity.)

Similarly, perhaps a brand name CEO would only increase output by 1% over your hypothetical anonymous handsome guy, but that might still be worth millions a year.

---

In any case, I would be quite baffled if famously greedy and supposedly short-termist shareholders, would leave money on the table by not replacing name brand CEOs with some anonymous doll, if that worked as well as you suggest.

Re: Every company should be owned by its employees

#977
post #946

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The US has the highest pay gap of any nation. This doesn't contradict your point, but fwiw the pay gap of quite a few other nations come before the US. In terms of RP, the US ranks about 35th, behind many African and Asian nations. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_eq...

You left a key word out in the quote. Nobody wants to compete with Saudi Arabia when it comes to equality.

In fairness to fragmede, I was editing my post when they responded.

Re: Every company should be owned by its employees

#978
post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those who can escape the construct will do so. The number of routes available have increased thanks to globalization. You are not being imaginative enough. Look at people who don't have opportunities in their countries. Do they sit there and cry we don't have opportunities or are they moving? People are watching all this on their streams 24x7. And one thing people are good at is blindly copying what others are doing.…

What construct? Having a job is also a construct and it seems it's the dominant one. 26% of women are housewives [1]. The status quo is working mothers, are you a chatbot that thinks this is the fifties? I'd say you are being too imaginative. You are framing a traditional family as this abusive thing, master and slave except it's 2024. Marriage, at least in the US is extremely dangerous to men, if their wives divorce…

Women have been framing marriage as a work contract from the 60s, world wide, since they don't get paid anywhere close to what men get paid, just like the barista and the ceo. As more of them have paths to exit this contract, they will do so. Alimony laws are temporary reactions to the problem.

There is no great benefit to sitting and spending your whole life dependent financially on someone else especially if you don't have anything in common. This is the same reason men change jobs. Once globalization provides multiple paths for workers to exist corporate environments they do so. Thanks to the internet Women get to see on their feeds what options they have, in ways their mothers and grandmothers never did.

The only problem with people who hang out on HN is they don't know any sociology or why the womens movements emerged in history. All just completely delusional about success coming on the backs of exploiting free or unpaid work of others.

Re: Every company should be owned by its employees

#979
post #162
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A fracking rig costs 900k and many of them sit idle for years at a time: https://www.csmonitor.com/Environment/2022/0415/Demand-for-o... You are essentially saying that the roughnecks that work the rig for $30-40 an hour should be owning it. They don't have the capital to own it and pay for the oil rights to use it, or the risk tolerance that it will sit idle and still have to be maintained, stored in a rented wareho…

This has been debated for 100s of years and the era of funny money that is created at the stroke of a key i don't see how we can maintain the view that it should be so skewed towards capital.

Shifting away from using capital as the basis for resources allocation has been tried repeatedly and failed catastrophically every time. There's no mechanism than the market better to optimize the problems of supply, demand, and logistics.

However, something should definitely be done about funny money printers. There are plenty of mechanisms in history shown to be successful dealing with them, such as going to where they live and taking care of them in the dead of night. I agree that massive inflation is a serious problem, but the solution is not to say "let's get rid of the utility of money!" -- it is to punish the people subverting market utility for their own gain.

Trying to change reality because a small group of bad actors is absurd. Just get rid of the bad actors.

Re: Every company should be owned by its employees

#980

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The board members are frequently CEOs of other companies, where the CEO whose salary is decided may be a board member.

Can you cite this, please?

If not CEOs, they will mostly have a senior role in other businesses with similarly inflated salaries, and be potential future CEOs.
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