Live data from Hacker News

Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

theatlantic.com

971–980 of 1001 posts

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#971
post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does this compare to Portugal’s wild success when it comes to decriminalizing hard drugs? Seems like SF is a way less useful example.

Portugal is disaster. I went there but here is a link [1] :( [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/07/07/portugal-dru...

It's due to budget cuts over the last decade: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-portugal-drugs-idUSBRE87C... (2012)

> APDES, a non-governmental agency for social projects, warned in a report earlier this year that a range of harm reduction service providers were facing bankruptcy, while the “IDT closure endangers the future of the drug treatment system in general”.

The last paragraph has some essential observation:

> "There is a lesson there [..] Such spending has to be countercyclical. People need it the most in downturns, not when your economy is growing."

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#972

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Though for sugar, I haven’t personally seen people pawn off their childrens possession or rob people to get a fix, so it might not be as bad as drugs. Sugar is both legal to possess and readily available at very low cost. No one needs to rob people to afford it. Rats prefer both sucrose (table sugar) and saccharine (artificial sweetener) over cocaine: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1931610/

Sugar can be problematic, but those rat studies are quite contrived. They follow an intermittent fasting schedule where rats don't have access to any food for 12 straight hours of each day and then they are presented with the option for unlimited sugar drink for a period, with this cycle repeated for weeks to get the reported results. If the rats have 24/7 access to the sugar drink they don't develop all these addict…

Interesting review, thanks for sharing.

There's no doubt that there are dimensions along which sugar and cocaine are different, but your conclusion is unsubstantiated, IMO. The paper's conclusion is much more restrained:

> Given the lack of evidence supporting it, we argue against a premature incorporation of sugar addiction into the scientific literature and public policy recommendations.

Lack of evidence is not necessarily evidence of lack. Most of the arguments the review makes are that a mechanistic link between sugar/fat consumption and addictice eating behavior has not been substantiated by the literature. The review does not argue that such a link is impossible or improbable, nor does it argue that addictive eating behavior is in a different stratosphere from addictive drug use behavior.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#973
post #121

I used to strongly support making drugs legal. I thought: this is a free country, you should be able to do what you want. But what I've seen in San Francisco has made me think differently. Most people who use drugs eventually end up not being able to live like normal adults. And no one willingly goes to get help or treatment. The problem will stick around because politicians care more about how things look. They'll s…

> Does anyone have ideas on what we should do? Tackle the issue at the root: mental health. It's an error to focus too much on the substance (illegal drugs) when alcohol, legal drugs, food and many other forms of abuse and dependency can lead to similar or worse outcomes.

The phrase "mental health" makes light of the realities of addiction.

From what I understand, an addict can't mental health their way into being someone who isn't an addict.

If that is the case, after they have become an addict, they can only mental health themselves into being someone who refuses to indulge in their addiction.

If they refuse to indulge long enough, the craving loses its power over their reasoning, but they still have the capacity to be immediately back to where they started if they indulge a single time.

In my opinion, the best thing is to never use a drug you don't have to use.

The next best thing is to use them extremely sparingly or for a specific purpose.

If you go past this point, you begin to run the risk of becoming addicted.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#974

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your focus on monetary matters is well on par with how alarm-equipped hospital beds are marketed: "Consider the cost of a patient who had skin tissue compression due to wetting themselves. Use our calculator below!". Not kidding, seen almost the exact copy on a hospital bed vendor. While the numbers may be true, it's a very inhumane way to think about people.

It's a tactic to convince a general audience, not meant to indicate how I feel about the addicted. Unfortunately about half the population doesn't have empathy for anyone they don't grow up with, and some of those have empathy for no one at all. I know a thing or two about these folks and they're all suffering before they started using. They often start by self medicating because they were traumatized or incredibly i…

> It's a tactic to convince a general audience,

It doesn't sound friendly the way you say it, as if the "general audience" can't think for itself and needs to be convinced and tactics (ie, not facts) are needed to do so.

How about: "It's a technique to connect with a general audience."

It feels like it was common practice until just recently.

> Unfortunately about half the population doesn't have empathy for anyone they don't grow up with, and some of those have empathy for no one at all.

You know, everyone feels the same but they think it of a different 50%...

But it's not that - it's that I want to have a discussion of alternatives and feasibility without being hampered by either side's forced emotional manipulation instead of policy points.

I live in a drug city and I hear the "think of the pain of the junkies" all the time - as if I've never had drugs impact my family. As if we didn't reach this point through 20y+ of only thinking about the short-term interests of the druggies. As if me not falling over and sobbing with the person delivering the message is a sign of my massive inhumanity.

And then I go to a different meeting and I hear "think of the family of the random-attack victims", etc. As if I've never considered crime victims until they showed me how and my failing to sob along with them and adopt their policy decisions is because I hate the common man.

I really just want to discuss options. How much does jail cost vs street life vs treatment, how much greater or lesser risk is someone at on this drug vs that. Only once we know what we could do can we actually decide what we should do.

> I know a thing or two about these folks and they're all suffering before they started using. They often start by self medicating because they were traumatized or incredibly impoverished due to a series of unfortunate accidents.

fwiw, none of the people I know who have died or had their lives ruined through drugs have been the type of suicidally circle the drain. They're a seemingly random subset of people, of all political and economic stripes, and levels of abuse of disforture. Many were addicted via medical opioids and many via casual party usage. They aren't a special subset, they are us. There but for the grace of not encountering a laced joint, go I.

I don't doubt that many of the worst off people have significantly more pain that the average person, but I don't think that's relevant - they need treatment not because they're worthy for having a large enough victim card, but because it's not only doable (the options I want to discuss) but because I believe it's the best moral action for society as well.

> So, yes, I believe it's the right thing to do to treat rather than imprison.

Of course, but where our cities went wrong is people sabotaging the system under a false pretense of kindness by rejecting any imprisonment or coercion as part of treatment. Their drug and mental problems are used to prevent them from being charged with their crimes where we could enforce treatment.

In the short term it's always better to have another hit. We've proved rats will push a cocaine button all day until dead, why we need to witness it in people is beyond me. We need to remove the button.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#975
post #133
post #121

I used to strongly support making drugs legal. I thought: this is a free country, you should be able to do what you want. But what I've seen in San Francisco has made me think differently. Most people who use drugs eventually end up not being able to live like normal adults. And no one willingly goes to get help or treatment. The problem will stick around because politicians care more about how things look. They'll s…

We have built a society where the best options for these people are to do what they are doing. Nobody starts using because they have a great life but they’re just curious what a bit of meth feels like and then accidentally get hooked. They do it because there’s no better life path open to them. It’s really a form of suicide. Criminalizing will make the suicide process faster and less visible to you. It won’t stop any…

> Nobody starts using because they have a great life but they’re just curious what a bit of meth feels like and then accidentally get hooked.

No, I know people who've been hooked meth and heroin (all different people) who not only tried them for the high, but used them "safely" for years before they lost control.

EDIT: Here's a post from an HN user who followed exactly this path - no intention of self harm at all. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36965442

This single anecdote disproves your "nobody starts" claim.

> They do it because there’s no better life path open to them. It’s really a form of suicide.

No, less than one in twenty at most wants to die or has circumstances that would make the average person want to be dead if they had the addiction treated. (Which with modern drug-based methods is actually pretty easy.)

> Criminalizing will make the suicide process faster and less visible to you.

It's not suicide though, that's just want you're saying. It's your opinion. Given that most people recognize this isn't suicide, and most users did not and do not want to die, it should not be treated flippantly and the responses shouldn't be denigrated.

Banning hard drugs is like banning unsafe food or medical products - it's what we expect our government to do.

> Making it illegal would be like criminalizing sugar because of the obesity epidemic.

That would work and would save a lot of lives. And fwiw, the argument isn't if we should criminalize sugar which we already do in many goods and forms, it's about at what point the FDA should set the allowed value.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#976
post #411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I fully support decriminalization of all drugs, as long as it's far away from me and from anybody else who is just trying to live their best life. Let's go build a 10-acre island that is full of free housing and free drugs for anybody who wants it.

I assume you're being somewhat sarcastic, but I'd bet giving drug addicts stable housing would probably help at least some people with rehab.

From what I’ve heard is that they will just trash the place and be back on the streets in no time.

Housing doesn’t fix mental health and drug addiction problems.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#977

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Decriminalization actually would mean you see more of them out on the streets because they're not being locked away in prison. Decriminalization means the government cannot mandate people enter treatment. If people are out on the street and addicted, the government needs some teeth so they can treat even those that are in denial.

Agreed. Let's criminalize smoking and alcoholism as well.

Don't forget all the sugar addicts out there. Honestly, I hear a lot of "failure of the government's mental health policy" takes out there. As a lifelong addict, and someone whose family, friends, neighboorhood, community circles are filled to the brim with drug and alcohol addicts, it seems to me, that the only thing that seems to work long-term, is to fill the gaping spiritual hole within the human. Nobody can do this, but the addict himself (especially not possible for the government to have much of an effect). 'More churches, less prisons' is something a friend of mine likes to say. That definitely worked for him. For me what has worked the last 5-10 years is replacing negative addictions and habits, with positive ones. I was born an addict, and will likely die an addict, but now that is nothing but a positive in my life.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#978
post #970

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A precrime division doesn't belong in any law enforcement agency.

Yes it does, prevention is an integral part of "serve and protect".

"serve and protect" is the "part of a nutritionally balanced breakfast" label on your bowl of chocolate frosted sugar bombs that also includes 5 full grapefruits and a dozen bran muffins.

Police have no legal duty to serve and protect citizens as per the 2005 ruling from the Supreme Court. It's just a logo, a catchphrase. It means nothing.

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/candh/images/d/df/Chocolat...

https://www.barneslawllp.com/blog/police-not-required-protec...

https://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/politics/justices-rule-po...

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#979
post #207
post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have built a society where the best options for these people are to do what they are doing. Nobody starts using because they have a great life but they’re just curious what a bit of meth feels like and then accidentally get hooked. They do it because there’s no better life path open to them. It’s really a form of suicide. Criminalizing will make the suicide process faster and less visible to you. It won’t stop any…

>Nobody starts using because they have a great life but they’re just curious what a bit of meth feels like and then accidentally get hooked. They do it because there’s no better life path open to them. that's pretty obviously wrong. Look at the demographic sample of meth users; it's not just down-and-out on-the-street folks.[0] it's not some "i'm going to try heroin on my deathbed" drug; affluent people try/use it ro…

You nailed it. The amount of tech directors or VPs actively tweaking on coke or meth while interviewing me has been eye-opening. I remember one had an inch-long coke nail. Hah!

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#980
post #121

I used to strongly support making drugs legal. I thought: this is a free country, you should be able to do what you want. But what I've seen in San Francisco has made me think differently. Most people who use drugs eventually end up not being able to live like normal adults. And no one willingly goes to get help or treatment. The problem will stick around because politicians care more about how things look. They'll s…

Hold those who support destructive policies accountable.
Post reply on HN