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U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate online speech

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Re: U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate online speech

#971
post #823

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a few sites (e.g. local city news sites) that return 451 status code for EU IP addresses

Sure, but they have no "customers" in the EU. Quite the opposite with these platforms.

This year "Meta" basically said they might have to leave the EU. Some of the reactions were "and good riddance !".

To be fair, it's the USA, starting with the police-state-like Patriot Act, that basically made US companies illegal in the EU...

(I don't remember if there were any revelations in the Snowden scandal about Facebook helping the NSA to spy on EU citizens, companies, governments... IIRC the documents (we got) talked mostly about Google and Microsoft ?)

Re: U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate online speech

#972

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've actually updated my response with two more arguments just before you posted. I think it addresses some of your other questions here.

"Now logically, this implies an assumption that you can assemble and petition somewhere that will reach others and the government." I agree, however it doesn't say you have to be able to reach all or even a large percentage of the people, that they have to listen, and the like for the government. When the first amendment was written if you were to go outside and protest in a public square how many people would hear y…

Assume enough people want the government to regulate certain private online communities like Twitter, so that those spaces can be used for 1st amendment purposes.

This in my opinion is the strongest justification. This is just democracy at play, a large amount of the populace thinks this is important. If you find a way for everyone to agree on regulation, governments can put in place such regulation. It doesn't even have to be about any constitutional rights.

I don't think everyone agrees completely, me as well, I don't want to see these spaces become complete shit-show, full of trolls, bots, duplicate accounts, spam, foreign farm content, etc.

This is where I suggest a compromise, I think what I put forward is a good middle of the road, I think it can please both sides, those who want to be free to say whatever they want can, as long as they do so non-anonymously, and after having been fully verified to be a real legal person, have only a single account, and it's not illegal what they are saying. There might need some rules about the speech needing to be in context and not spammy as well, but that can be ironed out later.

Similarly, this should also limit the platform from the abuse that could come from just arbitrarily allowing everything and force laissez-faire attitude which would come from just say banning all form of moderation.

Now the question is, is there a constitutional issue that would prevent such regulation?

So we're flipping the argument now.

Nothing I can see in the constitution really protects the right of a private platform to not have the government make laws that can regulate how it manages its platform.

So being a private space doesn't really protect them from the people demanding regulation from government and for the government to enforce it on the platform.

That means, if we want, we could regulate these spaces so they can be used as an avenue for 1st amendment like petitioning to the government or redress of grievances, without interference from the platform private owning entity.

It also means, it's probably not currently illegal for these platforms to do so, since like you said, the constitution doesn't really say that everyone has the right to say anything they want about anything to anyone and anywhere. But also, this isn't really an issue, to me, this case isn't about what the constitution says or is interpreted, it's just about what we as people want for ourselves as laws/policies/regulations.

I think this could also be welcomed by the platforms. Currently, the lack of clear rules around moderation often put them in precarious PR scenarios, some amount of agreed on regulation can provide the political stability around their own line of business that could allow them to thrive even more.

Re: U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate online speech

#973

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How the 1st Amendment might protect a corporation's religious POV but not its exercise of editorial control is a very good question I don’t think this court buys the idea that the platforms exercise editorial control. For example: “But the more fundamental problem with the Platforms’ reliance on Herbert is that they do not have an “editorial process” that looks anything like a traditional publisher’s. See supra Par…

> They don’t seem to have any particular editorial mission. I don't think you have to have an editorial mission, as you say. But one could easily say our editorial mission is outlined in our terms of use. > They seem to mainly want to grow and profit. CBS News wants to grow and profit too? I don't know if there is anything wrong with the social media "editorial process" being different from the newspaper editorial pr…

Reasonable people can disagree on whether retroactively enforcing a very broadly written legalistic TOS is sufficiently similar to editing a newspaper to qualify as editorial control (no sarcasm).

My point was to the question (paraphrasing) - how can the courts rule that corporations are entitled to opinions expressed via donations but then take away their right to express opinions through moderation?

This court’s answer, which I find entirely plausible, is (paraphrasing) that the opinions tech platforms express through moderation at least do not constitute a real coherent viewpoint. Instead they are haphazard and fairly random responses to stimuli, for example, they are sometimes the side effects of algorithms designed primarily to promote engagement, and they are sometimes the result of pressure from members of Congress or other politicians, and they are sometimes the result of attempts to mitigate bad PR. I think the court is essentially saying something most people can largely sympathize with: that Facebook and YouTube don’t actually have anything resembling a genuine point of view, they are just out for their own growth and profit, and are claiming editorial coherence right now because it suits them, but will say the opposite tomorrow when they need a different legal shelter in a different court case.

CBS News tried to make money but there is no question the driving force of that division was to gather and present accurate news of some high minded importance. 60 Minutes had its flaws but it had miles more integrity than say Facebook. At what point are we going to allow just any old company to claim to be essentially a journalistic enterprise? Do you genuinely believe Facebook has a point of view to justify its moderation? If so, what is it?

Re: U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate online speech

#974

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> when you ban speech based on the content, it is a violation of the principle of free speech This is the sealion's argument, that you have to be willing to engage with them at all times in all contexts. It implicitly denies freedom of association. For example, if I am running doomermetalchats.com do I have to tolerate K-pop fanatics with their relentless positivity and sunny optimism?

Run a decentralized system akin to a modernized mailing list with a nice UI, where every person accessing the list gets to pick how their view of the list is filtered, choosing from competing filters or creating their own. Filters could be machine-based, competing human-moderator based, whatever. The doomers and the stans can be talking right alongside each other and never see each other; effectively, the doomer 'sit…

This has been tried repeatedly, and it turns out nobody likes it. People either self-segregate into echo chambers following very simple patterns of assortativity, or complain about being 'shadowbanned' if they can't reach the audience they want to.

There are a few different motivations for social communication, both cooperative and antagonistic. People often want to be able to communicate freely with their peers and exclude non-members of their peer group (socially, algorithmically, or by fiat), but sometimes also to be able to push into and perhaps take over network territory of rival groups or that they consider should be common.

Re: U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate online speech

#975

Earlier quoted context omitted.

MySite.com will crash if a million people try to read it. BigCorp.com will not. If you can serve more than two dozen people you're not a home, pub or private property, you are by definition a public square.

So a theatre can't evict someone for ruining the performance for everyone? A concert venue can't evict someone for smuggling in alcohol?

what theatre can hold a million people?

Re: U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate online speech

#976

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're probably living in a filter bubble. You'd be hearing only the same kind of things about California if you were in a different bubble.

I get most of my national news from NPR. What news am I missing about Texas? I guess I forgot the Uvalde school shooting police response in my list. I do hear bad things about California - homelessness, drug use, lots of petty theft that doesn't get prosecuted, ridiculously expensive housing, NIMBYs - but that's unrelated.

I'd better not get too involved in this because it's ugly politics nonsense, but it's easy enough to find criticisms of California for its power grid, leftism, pro-abortion-rights (which is obviously seen as a bad thing by many people), and political use of immigrants.

Re: U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate online speech

#977
post #534

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What evidence do you have of reddit employees censoring information they disagree with?

One look at r/worldnews or r/news? Those are not even some obscure subreddits. It's a community ruled by progressives, posted into by progressives and mostly read by progressives. The content reflects that. This has been achieved by years of content filtering and banning of any centrist or right wing views. It's the definition of an echo chamber. Or another of the main subreddits, r/video, just recently I'm watching…

>It's just that Reddit is a manufactured community of left wingers.

After US election day 2016, it was actually possible for about a day to post non-leftist posts and comments to /r/politics without them being instantly downvoted or removed for being "off topic", because the mods hadn't received new marching orders. It was quite a change, albeit temporary.

Re: U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate online speech

#978
post #869

Holy shivers, guys! I've read about this on arstechnica.com and what surprised me the most is the amount of negative sentiment towards the absence of censoring. I highly doubt those are ordinary people writing comments. Most likely hired commenters or bots. ( I hope world's majority still appreciates freedom of communication.

They aren't bots. Don't make an accusation like that without a reason for it. (And I also disagree with the Texas law.)

Re: U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate online speech

#979

Will this apply to bots? What if I have a big list of a complaints about a certain politician (use your imagination, there's more than one politician to complain about), but the "other party" doesn't follow me, in fact, I have very few followers overall. So I create a bot that spreads my opinions by replying to millions of other Tweets. Anyone who mentions the politician of interest will receive a reply from "me" (my…

> Will this apply to bots?

Most likely it'll apply in whatever cases Texas's govt wants. That is, the vague law will be basis for selective enforcement, like GDPR. There's no other way this can work.

Re: U.S. appeals court rejects big tech’s right to regulate online speech

#980

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Inside a store is not the same thing". Social media is not the commons. The internet is the commons. Social media platforms are the stores.

The stores or more like company towns ? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marsh_v._Alabama > ruled that a state trespassing statute could not be used to prevent the distribution of religious materials on a town's sidewalk even though the sidewalk was part of a privately-owned company town

The difference is that people giving out the religious materials were doing the giving out. The ruling didn't say they could just send the materials to the owners of the side-walk who would then have to give them out to everybody who walks on their sidewalk.

That would be like expecting Facebook or Twitter to distribute any materials you give them, to everybody who visits FB. That would be totally unfair, companies don't have the obligation to pass on your messages to anybody.

Freedom of Speech means I don't have to repeat and amplify what somebody else says or wants me to say. It is not only the freedom to speak what I want, but also the freedom to NOT speak. And companies have freedom of speech too.

This judicial ruling sounds very suspicious to me.

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