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Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

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Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#971

Post by AtNightWeCode »

charcircuit wrote: post #619
AtNightWeCode wrote: post #488

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sit down in the boat. Thepiratebay is still online a trizillion years after all the debacles. Cloudflare is not the biggest player at these services. Any other major competitor does not allow services like KW. This whole ordeal is stupid.

Thepiratebay hasn't had an angry mob of people trying to take it down via any means necessary. A site being taken down because of copyright infringement is different from a site being taken down because of social pressure.

Thepiratebay has been offline because of DDOS-attacks in the past.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#972

Post by sealeck »

byyll wrote: post #942
sealeck wrote: post #814

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Doxxing" doesn't restrict someone else's free speech. It just discourages them from conducting speech under their public identity. That is restricting their ability to speak freely - now they have to hide their identity for fear of physical violence!!!

I've seen people make the argument "free speech does not mean free from consequences". This seems to be the same case here. Free speech does not mean free from the consequence of "doxxing"

This argument is patently ridiculous - according to this logic everyone has "free speech" in that they are able to express themselves even if they are attacked for it with physical violence.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#973

Post by BizarroLand »

cowtools wrote: post #806
elcamino44 wrote: post #784

I think it’s interesting that so many people see the danger in a Twitter “mob” effectively running Kiwifarms off the public, visible internet, without recognising that Kiwifarms themselves were a mob, with the precise goal of running people (including the recently targeted streamer) off the public visible internet too. The tactics were different, but the goal is effectively the same. The key differences are Kiwifarms…

I don't think the goal of KF is to de-platform individuals, but merely to discredit them by publishing demeaning information and rumors about them. So they are categorically different: one side is pro-free-speech, and the other side is pro-censorship. "Doxxing" doesn't restrict someone else's free speech. It just discourages them from conducting speech under their public identity. If you ask me, what they ought to do…

They published the home address of the family of a trans child and their members physically showed up in person to harass and intimidate that family for years for the crime of existing.

https://old.reddit.com/r/WhitePeopleTwitter/comments/x76vck/...

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#974

Post by logicalmonster »

Sohcahtoa82 wrote: post #969
logicalmonster wrote: post #967

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Kiwi Farms exists solely to serve as a breeding ground for harassers. > Organizing harm against others is essentially the mission statement for Kiwi Farms. How are you such an informed expert in Kiwifarm's culture and mission statement? Your opinion may or may not reflect reality, but you don't sound the slightest bit objective about this at all. And given all of the censoring and deplatforming that has been done i…

You're commenting as if your ignorance on what Kiwi Farms is gives you some sort of moral high ground. As much as I hate to say "Do your research"...well...do some research. Start at the Wikipedia page ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiwi_Farms ). Check the sources for the article and make an actual informed decision rather than just acting like it's impossible to know and then acting like such a position is somehow…

Ever observe a certain level of intense personal drama in real life where people start getting unhinged and start getting into the slashing tires, keying cars, jumping the other with a weapon, or setting others' property on fire phase of conflict? You have 2 sets of friends both telling you that the other side did X,Y,Z because they're evil and insane. You can sort of parcel out the gist of what might have happened with enough investigation, but ultimately you weren't there and making a concrete decision on whose fault the drama was involves making a judgement call after talking to friends who are all biased about what happened and knowing that each side is trying to be persuasive towards their side.

That's sort of where I am stuck right now.

Wikipedia and the mainstream news sources it links to are absolutely not trustworthy, unbiased sources or interpreters about anything like this event. Asking me to look at Wikipedia links for the best objective interpretation of this mess would be like asking me to ask the best friend of a jilted lover in the middle of intense personal drama and assuming that I'm getting a purely accurate portrayal of events.

I'm not claiming any sort of moral high ground here. I'm only claiming 2 things.

1) Ignorance about Kiwifarms. I never followed that drama to begin with or knew about that site's culture and activity. Maybe they're very guilty, I just can't prove that with what I know.

2) Wikipedia and the media are horrendously awful sources for this kind of drama.

Please note: I'm not claiming Kiwifarms is innocent here. I acknowledge that they could be very guilty. I think it's reasonable to guess that they probably are. I just can't reasonably make a concrete judgement like that without seeing first-hand info in context that illustrates this clearly.

It's an important detail to me that the Kiwifarms site is down and can't really be researched very fully outside of perhaps some Archived links. And even if the site was up, you'd miss out on what was deleted by admins or not in real-time...which is very important to this case. Was Kiwifarms trying to remove illegal content? It's hard to say after the fact with this level of drama unless you were in the middle of it and following posts and how they operated in real time.

All I'm going to do from now on is keep my eyes open and try and learn more about Kiwifarms if I come across any reasonably trustworthy looking articles that aren't obvious polemics.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#975

Post by nicbou »

no-dr-onboard wrote: post #963
nicbou wrote: post #952

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't the other option to facilitate it? There's no inaction here, since you provide a service to that group. You choose between turning a blind eye or kicking them out.

That’s a false dichotomy. Tolerance of something you don’t like is a choice. It’s a particularly meaningful choice when you are restraining the urge to act for the sake of downstream consequences and future generations. Note that I’m not suggesting to turn a blind eye either.

What I'm saying is that inaction is also a choice, and not a neutral one.

I'd add that tolerating/enabling those groups also bears consequences for the future generations.

Like I said in another comment, the slope isn't that slippery. You can ban these guys and stop there.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#976

Post by atoav »

amadeuspagel wrote: post #729
atoav wrote: post #667

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I were to threaten to shoot your kids if you again post something that I don't like, while making clear that I know where you live, my speach will certainly imped with your ability to express yourself freely, or wouldn't it? If you think it wouldn't I'd like to know how your thinking goes. I am not from the US, so maybe the whole theoretical idea is different from the ground up.

> If I were to threaten to shoot your kids if you again post something that I don't like, while making clear that I know where you live, my speech will certainly impede with your ability to express yourself freely, or wouldn't it? You're right, certain speech, like direct threats of violence can impede on other people's right to freedom of speech. But such speech is illegal even in the US and also banned on Kiwi Farm…

How about coordinating to targeted attacks? Imagine a muslim terrorist groups forum and how their coordination works there.

Is it legitimate to take that platform down? You don't have to answer, the US certainly thought so during the past wars.

Is it legitimate speech to write some vague SMS to the wrong person? You don't have to answer, whole wedding societies have been killed for that speech.

Now one could argue, "Yeah but they might have been terrorists, or associated themselves with the wrong people."

But what is terrorism and why does a free society break it's promise of freedom of speech to fight it? Terrorism is trying to reach political goals by (often) violent means, with the aim to create fear. This fear stifles the free discourse in a free society by targeting specific symbolic targets. And isn't that a definition that fits many fringe political groups that would target individuals and make their lives hell like it apparently happened in the case of KF?

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#977

Post by pas »

raxxorraxor wrote: post #162
concordDance wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I treat these sites as cannaries. As long as they exist I can be confident that censorship isn't too bad, as they start to get shut down I start to worry. First the came for the X and I was not an X etc etc...

They also provide a good counter to propaganda. You don't have to believe you get Covid chipped or in evil lizard people to see serious and concerning displays of media propaganda. And yes, it is US corporations in cooperation with government far more than the Russians on the English speaking net. There is just as much propaganda in Russia in Russian of course. It is just the usual type of propaganda and works even m…

the counter to propaganda is thoughtful, deep investigation of the matter at hand, getting at least some minimal subject matter expertise and getting the opinion of experts, etc. (nowadays this has the fancy name of epistemological rationalism)

KF is at best more/different propaganda against the mainstream propaganda

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#978

Post by jstarfish »

tga_d wrote: post #943
throwawayacc2 wrote: post #938

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Freedom of speech may protect against government consequences but it doesn't protect against social consequences. Whenever I see this line, all I can think is this is the exact same reasoning used by racists and homophobes and religious fanatics in the past. Maybe it’s legal for you to be gay now, but we don’t want to welcome you in our community. Maybe it’s legal for black people to buy houses in our neighbourhood…

Kiwi farms is not being persecuted for holding an identity, it's being held accountable for actions taken against innocent people. Nobody reasonable thinks, e.g., "persons who engage in abusive behavior" should be a protected class shielded from all repercussions.

No post body was provided.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#979

Post by birdboy2000 »

Y-bar wrote: post #941
birdboy2000 wrote: post #531

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I want content-neutral infrastructure. KF are scum and much of what they do should be illegal, but I want those decisions made in a court of law where they can defend themselves, not by whoever got in the ear of the right tech CEO. Platforms aren't people and shouldn't have rights.

Freedom of association is enshrined in many constitutions and laws across the globe as a fundamental right. Why do you want to force people to associate with those they do not want to? I am member of a badminton club, we have a code-of-conduct. It contains things like: - Don't harass other players - Don't harass or be an ass towards refs - Don't litter it the gym, keep it tidy - Don't take performance-enhancing drugs…

and if people think your code of conduct is too harshly enforced they can and will go elsewhere, there are thousands of badminton clubs in the world. Different strokes for different folks. Trying to kick someone off the internet entirely is a completely different matter.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#980

Post by birdboy2000 »

UncleMeat wrote: post #874
birdboy2000 wrote: post #531

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I want content-neutral infrastructure. KF are scum and much of what they do should be illegal, but I want those decisions made in a court of law where they can defend themselves, not by whoever got in the ear of the right tech CEO. Platforms aren't people and shouldn't have rights.

If only the folks saying this stuff showed up in force to defend people other than nightmare bigots.

Most of my outrage is aimed at censorship of left-wing and antiwar content. Much of which is already banned from most of reddit and deranked from google - I don't want to see the whole internet go down that road via DDoS protection, and fear KF, who I hate, was a first step and not a last one.

Tech giants started justifying their abuses through "nazis bad" and now pointing out US support for Azov gets your website hidden.

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