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Why we ignore thousands of daily car crashes

strongtowns.org

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Re: Why we ignore thousands of daily car crashes

#971
post #952
post #909

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, I didnt question the reason behind the suicide, I just wanted to point out that not all suicidal people can be labeled as burdens to society. > Live as they see fit So in your opinion that includes killing oneself, even in cases that could be avoided if access to appropriate help could be provided? (Not enforced, provided as an alternative option to suicide)

We can provide resources for people who want help without taking away rights from other people who aren’t doing anything wrong. The original comment was about banning guns for everyone to prevent people from committing suicide. Following that logic, should we lock everyone in a cell under 24/7 suicide watch because it would prevent some people from committing suicide?

No, that's a strawman. You have to draw the line somewhere, and most of the civilized world agrees that not giving general public access to devices that can kill by twitching ones finger, is not above that line. Same as requiring people to wear seatbelts.

Your fallacious argument aside though, you are correct, you can provide support resources without taking rights of others away, and in the US that is the case. Congrats. I will stay in a country where, if I am ever depressed, the support structures have a higher chance of saving me, because it will take more than moving my finger by 2mm to literally explode my head.

Re: Why we ignore thousands of daily car crashes

#972

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, then we just have to accept is as a cost of doing business and not try to stop it, because the same could be said about anything short of a full all-knowing surveillance state. People commit murder because they think they're good and won't get caught. Some don't. Better that ten guilty persons go free than one innocent be convicted though. So we just have to decide how far down "convicted" really means, and if…

Why does the DUI body count need to be so low that the only options for getting there running out society like 1984 or running it like ISIS?

I don't think it does. So I think we actually honestly agree that the current situation is probably fine and that neither mandatory breathalyzers built into all cars nor mandatory loss of driving privileges are desirable outcomes. :-)

Re: Why we ignore thousands of daily car crashes

#973

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not wearing a seatbelt is also a choice to force the healthcare system to support the person for 50 years after they break their neck in a preventable way. The choice is individual but the consequences are societal.

One of the things I don't like about free health care is it comes with the notion that the government should force you to do things to reduce those costs.

then it's not free :)

anyway, spending on carless infrastructure to provide alternative transport modalities to people is what works, whereas trying to force people to just "do the healthy things" doesn't really

plus there's nothing stopping the US from coming up with "free healthcare 2.0" that also solves this with clever incentives (eg. via a voucher system, people who opt out of the hazardous things get a voucher, for example people without a car get a "free" monthly public transit ticket, etc.)

Re: Why we ignore thousands of daily car crashes

#974
post #871
post #688

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My little thought experiment supposes a person who is drunk evaluates, before deciding to get in the car, the potential outcomes of drunk drive, while entirely convinced they won't harm someone. And just that last clause makes it clear that, at least at that time and place, that person is not going to be deterred by reasonable incentives against reckless behavior , because their judgment is impaired. Basically, you…

> The only moral principle I have stated is that one should not impose punishments on people who have not caused actual harm But isn't the risk of death a harm? That's what I'm driving at here. It's about where the line is drawn. Should it be legal for someone to take shots at you as long as they miss? Drunk driving is the tip of an iceberg here. > My point is broader: that our society seems to assume that most adult…

> isn't the risk of death a harm?

No. It's a risk. Death itself is a harm, but risk of harm is not the same as actual harm.

> Should it be legal for someone to take shots at you as long as they miss?

If they're taking shots at you with the intent of harming you, that's already a crime; in most jurisdictions it's called assault with a deadly weapon or something similar. The basis for such laws is that having someone intentionally shoot at you, even if they miss, is a harm in and of itself. But that theory does not generalize to any action that carries a risk of causing harm.

If they don't realize you're in the path of the shots and they miss, there is no crime, but there is certainly a very good reason to keep that person as far away from you as possible. And if everyone did that with people who do obviously reckless and dangerous things, those people would find it impossible to survive and would pay the price of their recklessness. I'd be fine with that.

> Why must society be doomed if it needs "nanny-state" laws to function?

Because if it actually needs nanny state laws to function, that means its citizens are not responsible adults. And a society whose citizens are not responsible adults is doomed.

> I agree it's a few.

If it's only a few, why is it a serious problem that requires nanny state laws to fix? Why can't all of us who are responsible adults just, as I said above, refuse to associate with the few who are not responsible adults? Oh, you want a drink at my bar (or my private party, or just hanging out with me)? Are you going to drive? Sorry, I can't give you a drink if you're going to drive. And so on.

In other words, a society in which all but a few people are responsible adults does not need nanny state laws for the few who are not, because everyone else, as responsible adults, will regulate the behavior of the non-responsible few anyway. Nanny state laws are only needed if many citizens are not responsible adults. But you've said you don't think that's the case. So why don't you, as (presumably) a responsible adult, just do what responsible adults are supposed to do when dealing with the few who aren't responsible?

> are laws against drunk driving highly targeted, impacting only the people who are driving drunk, getting them off the roads before they hurt someone?

I already described a scenario in which a cop does exactly this with a drunk driver who doesn't cause harm, without imposing any punishment. So your implicit assumption that the only way to get drunk drivers off the roads is to punish them for violating a nanny state law is incorrect. In other words, in my proposed scenario, the cop, a responsible adult, regulates the behavior of one of the few who is not responsible. He can do that without needing any nanny-state laws to justify it. His simple duty to keep the roads safe is enough. That duty already empowers him to get drunk drivers off the road. He can do that just fine without imposing any punishments.

> regulation preventing drunk driving abrogates a 'right' _they won't exercise_

In this particular case, perhaps. But giving the government power to enact such nanny state regulations will abrogate other rights that responsible adults will want to exercise. There is no such thing as a government that only imposes just those nanny state laws that are needed to restrain the irresponsible few and never imposes any that unjustifiably restrain the responsible many. I already gave one counterexample: speed limit laws. There are many others.

Re: Why we ignore thousands of daily car crashes

#975
post #971
post #952

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We can provide resources for people who want help without taking away rights from other people who aren’t doing anything wrong. The original comment was about banning guns for everyone to prevent people from committing suicide. Following that logic, should we lock everyone in a cell under 24/7 suicide watch because it would prevent some people from committing suicide?

No, that's a strawman. You have to draw the line somewhere, and most of the civilized world agrees that not giving general public access to devices that can kill by twitching ones finger, is not above that line. Same as requiring people to wear seatbelts. Your fallacious argument aside though, you are correct, you can provide support resources without taking rights of others away, and in the US that is the case. Cong…

Restricting access to guns is not part of a support structure, it is a control structure. Maybe you appreciate the government controlling you in that way, most Americans are more independent minded.

If you didn't want to be around guns, you can simply ... not own one. Many Americans don't, it's not like it's required.

Re: Why we ignore thousands of daily car crashes

#976
post #921

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Irrelevant to the point - driving is getting safer, not more dangerous. And unless people deriving zero benefit, every mile driven is a positive outcome. To ignore that is to look at the problem incorrectly.

Given that I only have one life, I actually only care about the cost in lives, not cost per mile. The way we design our society impacts how much we are forced to drive. Our current plans force people to drive more and more. Even without increasing miles, deaths by cars are somewhat decreasing, especially compared to decades ago, and I've posted those graphs elsewhere in this thread. The real way to decrease car death…

Wait, you do cost-benefit analyses by ignoring benefits?

Re: Why we ignore thousands of daily car crashes

#977
post #974
post #871

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The only moral principle I have stated is that one should not impose punishments on people who have not caused actual harm But isn't the risk of death a harm? That's what I'm driving at here. It's about where the line is drawn. Should it be legal for someone to take shots at you as long as they miss? Drunk driving is the tip of an iceberg here. > My point is broader: that our society seems to assume that most adult…

> isn't the risk of death a harm? No. It's a risk. Death itself is a harm, but risk of harm is not the same as actual harm. > Should it be legal for someone to take shots at you as long as they miss? If they're taking shots at you with the intent of harming you, that's already a crime; in most jurisdictions it's called assault with a deadly weapon or something similar. The basis for such laws is that having someone i…

> If they're taking shots at you with the intent of harming you, that's already a crime; in most jurisdictions it's called assault with a deadly weapon or something similar. The basis for such laws is that having someone intentionally shoot at you, even if they miss, is a harm in and of itself. But that theory does not generalize to any action that carries a risk of causing harm.

You can't lean on the argument that the harmless act of shooting and missing is a already a crime while simultaneously arguing that drunk driving should not be a crime unless the driver connects. You really need to decide what amount of reckless disregard for another life constitutes a 'harm' and should be criminalized.

Re: Why we ignore thousands of daily car crashes

#978
post #96

There’s an audio version of the same point here: https://podcast.strongtowns.org/e/the-drip-drip-drip-of-traf... A ”best effort” summary of this article: if thousands of people die in once place, it’s one of the great tragedies in American history. However if thousands of people die in thousands different places, it is ignored and considered a fact of life. When a plane or train crashes, we stop everything and redesi…

Are you sure? We've been redesigning everything for years because is car wrecks. Cars are safer today because of it. For both passengers and pedestrians. Roads have been rebuilt. Deaths, pretty million, has been decreasing for the last fifty years thanks to changes being made.

You are right in that car accidents don't elicit quite the same reaction as a single mass death, but they aren't being ignored and aren't quite considered a fact of life.

Re: Why we ignore thousands of daily car crashes

#979
post #975
post #971

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, that's a strawman. You have to draw the line somewhere, and most of the civilized world agrees that not giving general public access to devices that can kill by twitching ones finger, is not above that line. Same as requiring people to wear seatbelts. Your fallacious argument aside though, you are correct, you can provide support resources without taking rights of others away, and in the US that is the case. Cong…

Restricting access to guns is not part of a support structure, it is a control structure. Maybe you appreciate the government controlling you in that way, most Americans are more independent minded. If you didn't want to be around guns, you can simply ... not own one. Many Americans don't, it's not like it's required.

Where I live, I can own a gun if I want to, provided I pass rigorous psychological examination, and repeat it every few years. But because there is practically no guns on the streets, I dont feel the need to. Admittedly, it would be difficult to reconsile my opinions on gun ownership with the need for personal safety if I lived in the US.

But yes, I absolutely do appreciate there being a control structure that prevents psychopaths from going to walmarts artillery section and shooting up a school every other week.

Following the same fallacy you used previously, should we abolish all laws because everyone should be able to excercise their free will completely unrestricted?

Re: Why we ignore thousands of daily car crashes

#980

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just spent 3 months traveling across the United States and then 3 months traveling across Europe and now I’m super curious what part of Europe you visited and what part of the US you are from?

I was in Spain, France, Germany, Denmark, Sweden and then Italy. I think Denmark and Sweden had the best roads. German autobahns we’re great but getting close to any population center meant I’ll planned junctions showed up again. Not to mention there is no parking anywhere, a real nightmare on a road trip.

My biggest takeaway from Europe was how incredibly well cities were planned for pedestrians vs cars. Obviously these cities were often developed much earlier than US cities and this makes perfect sense.

We got all around Europe (Slovakia to Switzerland to Italy to Austria and back) all without a car. As a US citizen this priority can be frustrating at times because some cities even have no admittance for non-local cars, so you gotta park out of the city and transit in if you don’t have a local plate. But as a US citizen I am incredibly envious of the rail network and the downtown areas which are pedestrian only and entirely devoid of cars.

But also fundamentally we found that just as in states within the US, country to country things were vastly different with road quality. Many Eastern European countries are still weeding out corruption in their political systems and funds allocated for infrastructure are finally making it into public projects, so they often had worse roads and rail systems.

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