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US agencies call for pause in Johnson & Johnson vaccine

bbc.co.uk

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Re: US agencies call for pause in Johnson & Johnson vaccine

#971

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I got a little out of breath doing simple tasks like walking briskly or picking up my kids, and I had a pain in my back (actually lung) that gradually got worse over a few days. Eventually the pain was severe enough that I went to the ER. Looking back, the shortness of breath was a key indicator. It wasn't that I was struggling to breathe or anything, but I felt like I couldn't take a big deep breath easily and that'…

ok now I'm worried. I got the JJ vaccine 4 weeks ago. Suffered semi bad flu for few hours that night then after felt great. Now some who now me may consider me a hypochondriac but I've felt a tad "off" since the vaccine but kept it to myself. Maybe only 2-3 tiny lightheadedness episodes while walking the dog (nothing major just more of "what was that"), or some very minor chest tightness and stomach bloating feel. Bu…

If you’re having chest pain that’s severe enough to wake you up at night, I would talk to a doctor. It doesn’t have to have anything to do with the vaccine.

I would also not dismiss the nagging feeling in the back of your head that something doesn’t feel right. You know your body more than anyone.

Re: US agencies call for pause in Johnson & Johnson vaccine

#972
post #941

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I got a little out of breath doing simple tasks like walking briskly or picking up my kids, and I had a pain in my back (actually lung) that gradually got worse over a few days. Eventually the pain was severe enough that I went to the ER. Looking back, the shortness of breath was a key indicator. It wasn't that I was struggling to breathe or anything, but I felt like I couldn't take a big deep breath easily and that'…

How were you treated for this, and how has recovery been?

They put me on blood thinners right away to prevent future clots and prevent the clots from getting bigger. I’ll be on them for at least a few months.

They then put me on pain meds and supplemental oxygen for a few days and watched me. The pain went away after a few days (I assume when the inflammation went down).

They didn’t actually treat the clots themselves. The body apparently does that itself over the course of a few weeks and months. There are invasive surgical ways to try to break them up but they felt I wasn’t bad enough to risk it since I could sit up and breathe on my own.

They checked my heart for tissue damage and thankfully didn’t find any. So now they’re doing a slew of tests to find the cause (genetics? Cancer? So far tests show cancer is unlikely).

Recovery has been good to be honest. I’m not really in pain. I do get out of breathe very easily but they say that’s normal and should go away in a few weeks as the clots dissipate. The lung damage should heal, I think.

The real danger from more clots to the brain or damaging the heart are prevented by the blood thinners, which are apparently highly effective. So I think I got lucky and I’m glad I went to the ER when I did.

Re: US agencies call for pause in Johnson & Johnson vaccine

#973
post #506

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"no large blood vessels are present at the recommended injection sites" That's a bold statement. Sure, no large blood vessels may be present at the recommended injection site on an average human , but it's well known there is more divergence in anatomy than they necessarily teach about in primary school, and vaccines are supposed to go in basically everyone.

Lol.. please comment after taking an actual human anatomy class

As a set of examples, not the whole gamut of such possibilities: https://health.howstuffworks.com/human-body/parts/reversal-o...

Your first class may not teach this, but you'd get to it eventually if you kept taking classes. (Then again, your first class may at least mention this sort of thing at some point.) What the "average human" is is not what all humans are. There's all sorts of things like, the stuff in that link, major nerve clusters having additional or missing separations, extra separated or fused bones, major veins and arteries not being quite in the usual location... look close enough and you'll find something on everybody that doesn't match the "standard human anatomy".

Re: US agencies call for pause in Johnson & Johnson vaccine

#974
post #419
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have no idea what it means You have the whole internet available. I bet you can work it out without too much effort.

Risk of... dying? Being injured? Being hospitalized? Developing a life-threatening clot? Also it's missing a word "from" but I worked that out. Thanks for your contribution.

Ha, none of us guessed right. I assume dying, since an analogy between other consequences of the two events would be so fuzzy.

Re: US agencies call for pause in Johnson & Johnson vaccine

#975

Earlier quoted context omitted.

2/4 of those examples are affluent island nations with low population densities. Another one of those examples has been actively censoring covid information from the start, and thus cannot be trusted. As for Vietnam, it is an interesting case, and we don't have enough data to rule out cross reactivity or other factors playing a role. Extrapolating these data points to the entire world with wildly varying sociological…

> 2/4 of those examples are affluent island nations with low population densities. Australia and NZ have densely populated cities, and what does being an island have to do with anything? Countries can close their borders. In fact, Australian states closed their borders to one another. > Another one of those examples has been actively censoring covid information from the start, and thus cannot be trusted. You don't ha…

>question is whether each county has the organizational capacity and societal will to carry this strategy out.

Indeed, that's a critical question to the long term success of the strategy.

If the world is unable to put 8 billion people in solitary confinement (nevermind the disastrous effects that would cause) indefinitely until the virus is eliminated (nevermind the fact that we are incapabale of validating if it was actually completely erradicated), the virus is only going to pop back up.

There is no evidence of such a strategy working at scale across the world.

The scientists on the covid team at the WHO have said as much: lockdowns should only be used as a last resort to buy time to scale up health care resources. Should we listen to those scientists?

Re: US agencies call for pause in Johnson & Johnson vaccine

#976

Earlier quoted context omitted.

2/4 of those examples are affluent island nations with low population densities. Another one of those examples has been actively censoring covid information from the start, and thus cannot be trusted. As for Vietnam, it is an interesting case, and we don't have enough data to rule out cross reactivity or other factors playing a role. Extrapolating these data points to the entire world with wildly varying sociological…

> As for Vietnam, it is an interesting case, and we don't have enough data to rule out cross reactivity or other factors playing a role. They took shit seriously and everyone prepared the minute news reached them of a possible pandemic. A good friend of mine is from VN and he was shipping PPE back home to his parents around August or October of 2019. I think most Americans don't realize how common pandemics have been…

>how common pandemics have been in east Asia.

This is why we need more data about cross reactivity playing a role in the relatively favorable health outcomes in Asia and Africa compared to the rest of the world.

Re: US agencies call for pause in Johnson & Johnson vaccine

#977
post #642

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, you may not be (or see yourself) an anti-vaxxer, and your right that it's not necessarily wise to label everyone as such who have concerns with these vaccines, but it also doesn't mean that your excuses make sense. The batch is not "rushed" more than it's needed: there IS an emergency. It's also not experimental. The experiments have all been done (up to phase 3). It's perfectly normal to only see 1 in a millio…

Zero experiments have been done on long-term effects, and you cannot, and no one can, counter this point. That's the definition of "rushed". Vaccines typically take several years of testing before being approved. These aren't approved according to those standards. Manufacturers are absolved from risks because of this "emergency use" status. Why absolve them if there are no risks? If they truly believed these were saf…

You're mostly repeating the claims of GP and I have already responded to these. Esp. this one: "Vaccines typically take several years of testing before being approved."

The so called long-term effects have been mostly non-existent with any vaccine. First of all, the very expression "long-term effects" is vague. Do we mean effects that only materialize over the long term (i.e. a long time after being administered) or effects that last for a long time? The latter can be known (well, with a worst case estimation) even with short testing.

And as far as I am aware, there is very little evidence of the former happening with former vaccines. I.e. the vaccine inducing some systemic change in your body that remains undetectable for years.

> If they truly believed these were safe and of tremendously important benefit, they could stand > up and say "we accept responsibility for negative outcomes in accordance with > ordinarily approved medication, and waive our rights to emergency use protections".

First of all who? You seem to mingle several groups into one here. It's not the pharma companies who believe that that these are very important, but the society. (Well, at least the ones who don't live in denial.) The importance stems from the seriousness of the epidemic.

And safety is not a binary/boolean attribute. Safety can be measured and the accuracy of the measurement has a confidence (i.e. a probability that it's within the estimated limits). Now the claim is that this measured safety is way above the safety of contracting COVID. And this is the very reason we know that it's beneficial. For the society. It's pretty clear that pharma companies don't make nearly as much profit as much it is beneficial for the individual countries. Just try to add up the cost of the lockdowns e.g. for a year and then devide it by the number of doses and see how much they should cost if calculated like that. You know what, let me do the math for you: a year of lockdown has been estimated to cost 251bn GBP for the UK[1]. The UK has 66M population. Let's calculate with 266M doses. That would give you 19GBP/dose (~26USD) for the vaccines per dose. Per year. But they won't vaccinate everyone, 80% would already be an over estimation (which would increase the value of price/dose to 32.5GBP and we're not just talking about money we're also talking about lost lives and a lot of frustration, which would further increase the value of these shots.

Comprared to that, the AstraZeneca costs about 2USD, IIRC, the EU pays about 16EUR (14GBP) for the Pfizer/Biontech one.

So it's not that the tremendous value gets all snatched up by the pharma companies. Also, they do have a responsibility. In the US they have been waived, but not in the EU. And guess what: a lot of people keeps saying the same things over here. (Including* that they don't take responsibility.)

The reason the US waived these companies is exactly because the vaccines are so important and valuable for the sate (i.e. for the people). A quick rollout was more important for them, than for the pharma companies. As a side note: some politicians over here (EU) think that the US did it the right way by not wasting time on negotiating hard with the pharma companies and that the EU is behind exactly because of that and that we should have waived them as well. (I'm not sure I buy into it.) But the EU non-waiver is an assurance for everyone else, including the US citizens. Yes, you may not get a million $ check if you happen to be unlucky, but it still shows that the companies indeed do have the confidence in their product you were talking about.

[1] https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/mar/22/a-year-of-c...

Re: US agencies call for pause in Johnson & Johnson vaccine

#978
post #824

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This has nothing to do with "anti-vaxxers". Vaccines usually take years to develop precisely because we give them to everyone, and rare, long-tail risks matter. This was the case well before the MMR autism scare defined "anti-vax" as it has come to be known today. Anti-vax hysteria has been around for longer than MMR and autism. > rare long-tail risks matter I agree, but at the same time I also think that it's an o…

Read the post by timr above. The studies are very limited and can't reliably detect problems that occur with small part of population. This can be hundreds of thousands of people. The worst case for vaccination isn't that you get the illness. It is that you are one of the unlucky ones that gets some severe reaction and gets killed.

Has that ever happened in vaccine studies? What would the biological path be that would cause you to have a severe reaction from the vaccine but not from the disease itself? Why wouldn't that already be present the data around the millions of people that have already been infected by the disease?

The type of severe reactions you'd expect are allergic reactions. They would show up right away, not as an event 2 weeks later. Given that J&J has already done 6 million dosages it seems pretty safe to say that those allergic reactions are pretty much non-existent.

I see a lot of maybe and mights, yet never any actual evidence or example of the fear around vaccine safety or a cogent explanation of HOW these things could happen. That's because you'd have to explain how proteins from the vaccination are somehow more dangerous than the same proteins present in the diseases.

The linked explanation would have been a reason for a longer and wider phase II/III study. However, now that the cat is out of the bag and we've got millions of people who've been dosed for multiple months, that's the study. Until we start seeing severe negative side effects in the 100s or 1000s of individuals, it doesn't make sense to pull a vaccine.

Re: US agencies call for pause in Johnson & Johnson vaccine

#979
post #915

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A good precentage of people would see the deaths and still avoid going out to shop or whatever. That seems hard to believe, since significantly more people die every year of all causes than could possibly have died of Covid, even if every single person in the world caught it. Most people probably wouldn’t have noticed anything was different. > even if 10 or 20% of people changed their behavior that would still impa…

It's not at all hard to believe. All the people in my family, for instance, have changed grocery habits and stopped discretionary shopping in stores essentially entirely. Why? Many are older and have risks yet also have full lives and want to live to play with their grandkids. We prioritized gathering with each other cautiously over spending money shopping and changed habits immediately (I started working from home M…

The behavior changes you are describing are incredibly regional. For much of the US, we're already back to "near normal" and have been for ages.

Re: US agencies call for pause in Johnson & Johnson vaccine

#980
post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Government over-reactions to COVID19 have been disastrous. There would have been an economic hit for sure but things would have returned to near normal by August 2020 if they had respected freedom (or if people had disobeyed in mass).

Yeah. The US is apparently already at ~50% antibodies, not counting vaccination. So, there’s a floor on the upside of the vaccine: It did no more than halve deaths. We’re in the middle of a surge, and it looks like most of the remaining 50% will end up catching covid before being vaccinated, so the percentage saved by vaccination will continue to drop. The ideal strategy without hindsight was conventional wisdom: Pro…

> The cancel culture folks lumped them in with MAGA anti-vaxxers (I blame both sides)

Agreed

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