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Request For Research: Basic Income

blog.ycombinator.com

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Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#971

Post by brc »

davidgay wrote: post #809
derefr wrote: post #764

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Instead of Universal Basic Income, how about Universal Basic Food Stamps? It feels like, rather than a basic income, we need two orthogonal currencies: one for necessities (food, rent, utilities) and one for niceities. Everyone would just have two numbers in their bank account, for each of the country's two official currencies. Basic income would be paid in one, while all income from trade in the economy would be in…

To my mind, Universal Basic Income (UBI) is the most radical attempt to address the complexity that is introduced by trying to only give benefits to the "deserving": there's often a view that social benefits (food stamps, income support, child benefits, health care, etc, etc) should only be given to those who "need" it. So then you need to: - decide who actually "needs" the benefit - figure out how to recognise these…

Yes. Even structuring a two-tier payment type implies central planning and the thought that some group of people in front of a whiteboard can choose best for others who they have never met.

Even if some people waste the money on drugs the net benefit is still higher. The person determined to waste whatever income, in whatever form, will do so. The person who just needs cash to make ends meet doesn't need ever changing rules and calcified structures to try and work around.

Just give everyone the money, including the entire buildings of people who follow around making up rules and then making sure the rules are followed.

Welfare by basic income can be run by a set of scheduled tasks in a server. It's sheer simplicity outweighs all other drawbacks. Add a flat tax rate to the income side of the ledger and shackles are really starting to fall off.

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#972

Post by brc »

egypturnash wrote: post #341
lisper wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Products that offer serious competition for incumbents in the financial sector to bid down the 7-10% of the economy taken by financial services. The limiting factor here is the regulatory regime, which makes it all but impossible to move money around without using a bank as an intermediary. That gives the banking cartel effective veto power on all new financial services. The key reform here is to separate the movem…

"Access to money transfer as a basic human right" is a brilliant way to reframe the conversation around financial services. I'm gonna start talking about transaction fees from that perspective now. And yeah, good luck extracting the banks from the profit-making niches they've carved out in that process. They will fight that to their last breath.

Basic human right - taking it too far. Safety and freedom of speech are basic human rights.

Something like 'basic citizen right' makes more sense. If you want to opt out of being a citizen, you're still a human.

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#973

Post by brc »

surfmike wrote: post #346
ThomPete wrote: post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Problem is that a country like Denmark have all those things more or less and we still have more or less the same issues although to lesser degree. The solution to the problem isn't hiding in what we already know although many of these things of course would be hugely beneficial to people. The underlying problem. Technology is still going to be there.

I'd say the bottom 50% live much more prosperously in Denmark than in the US.

The population of Denmark is lower than the Bay Area. Some things are just easier with a small population and land area and relatively homogenous population.

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#974

Post by brc »

bradleyjg wrote: post #314
surfmike wrote: post #97

"What can startups do to increase prosperity for everyone?" I think cheap quality housing is a huge area that would help everyone. Taxes and housing together eat up the vast majority of the earnings most people make. What could make a difference? - applying technology to building denser housing. for example, imagine cheap robotic excavation, so every house and building could bury all their parking lots and long term…

A good first step would be for governments to stop doing everything in their power to make sure the cost of residential housing increases every year more than the rate of general inflation. I understand _why_ they do so, homeowners are a big and powerful constituency, but it is an incredibly inefficient and counterproductive way to go about doling out pork. This means things like eliminating the mortgage deduction, p…

Just create areas with relaxed zoning. Inspect only for service and building quality and let people build what they want. This will create affordable housing. The incredibly high fixed costs on development push the model towards high priced units.

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#975

Post by dkraft »

y'all are just using big words to express income redistribution. which. doesn't. work.

simply take the extreme case where everyone gets free resources. it is unsustainable.

natural selection is sustainable. that's how we got here.

anything else is just a deferment of the inevitable.

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#976

Post by sspiff »

dkraft wrote: post #975

y'all are just using big words to express income redistribution. which. doesn't. work. simply take the extreme case where everyone gets free resources. it is unsustainable. natural selection is sustainable. that's how we got here. anything else is just a deferment of the inevitable.

I think this is an oversimplifying view of reality.

Taking the most extreme case (free everything) and pointing out it's impossible (without referencing a single data point of evidence no less) is pointless.

Basic income is not about people not having to work for a living, it's a proposed restructuring of the social security that many nation states already have in place. That is, a simple basic income formula replacing complex and hard/expensive to police support formulas for the sick, elderly and/or unemployed. One of the leading arguments for these experiments is how they allow governments to downsize their workforce, thus lowering the cost for the taxpaying segment society.

As far as I know, early real world experiments are just now being spun up (in the Netherlands and Finland, for example), and so far all we have is simulation and theories from economists. That's not enough data to rule out the entire model.

You are of course welcome to have your own opinion and gut feeling about the matter, but until someone proves your point, I remain unconvinced.

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#977

Post by johnchristopher »

derefr wrote: post #764
tptacek wrote: post #589

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was thinking about that, and about the story of Ferguson Missouri, where some huge portion of the (largely African American) population had arrest warrants over petty fines that had blossomed through late fees and default judgements into financial catastrophes levied by the (largely middle class white) municipal government, with the last few suggestions.

Instead of Universal Basic Income, how about Universal Basic Food Stamps? It feels like, rather than a basic income, we need two orthogonal currencies: one for necessities (food, rent, utilities) and one for niceities. Everyone would just have two numbers in their bank account, for each of the country's two official currencies. Basic income would be paid in one, while all income from trade in the economy would be in…

We have something along those lines where I live. People without jobs can apply for job at a local municipal job center. They centralize demands from people for small jobs like lawn mowing, cutting the bushes, painting, etc. People buy checks from them and pay the worker with those checks (with a fixed price per hour). Then the worker goes back to the center to deposit the checks. Then the center forwards the checks to the social welfare administration that converts them into real money for the worker.

I knew someone in a rough spot that went there and spent a day building a rabbit cage or something. When he got back to the center he was told that his SO earned too much for him to work there, they had failed to mention that when he got there first. So now he has checks worth nothing hanging on his walls.

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#978

Post by messel »

davidgay wrote: post #809
derefr wrote: post #764

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Instead of Universal Basic Income, how about Universal Basic Food Stamps? It feels like, rather than a basic income, we need two orthogonal currencies: one for necessities (food, rent, utilities) and one for niceities. Everyone would just have two numbers in their bank account, for each of the country's two official currencies. Basic income would be paid in one, while all income from trade in the economy would be in…

To my mind, Universal Basic Income (UBI) is the most radical attempt to address the complexity that is introduced by trying to only give benefits to the "deserving": there's often a view that social benefits (food stamps, income support, child benefits, health care, etc, etc) should only be given to those who "need" it. So then you need to: - decide who actually "needs" the benefit - figure out how to recognise these…

One comment on higer taxes + UBI. This curve is interesting to think about, slowly ramping or fixed percentage? I prefer simpler when it comes to large scale concepts, but maybe it needs to ramp up and affect all income equally (long term capital gains as well).

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#979

Post by oneJob »

Compare the U.S. Constitution (7,200 words) to the E.U. Constitution (76,000 words). Many comments are focusing on the mechanics and details. That approach leads down the road to 76,000 words. The goal is a macro issue, not a micro issue. Committing to a basic income is something that should be done for the same reasons we go to war or go to the moon. Not because it is easy or profitable but because it is what we want to do and believe we have a moral imperative to do. A basic income does not require that everyone become industrious. Nor does it guarantee national economic superiority. It is simply, and profoundly, a commitment to ensuring that every individual shares in the economic wealth generated by our society.

http://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/comparing-us-eu-...

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#980

Post by jliptzin »

Online voting needs to happen first before we have a chance of implementing a basic income in the US. The right wing just does not believe in science or the results of research that doesn't fit their worldview, so anything that comes of this will be moot, until they lose enough power through dying off, or through much higher participation rates among younger voters (online voting).
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