Live data from Hacker News

Don't fall into the anti-AI hype

antirez.com

961–970 of 1001 posts

Re: Don't fall into the anti-AI hype

#961
post #529
post #526

> How do I feel, about all the code I wrote that was ingested by LLMs? I feel great to be part of that, That's fine if he feels that way, but he can only speak for himself, not for all the copyright holders of the other code that was "ingested" to power LLMs. If you want to see how most creators who care about their work and actually own it (unlike most software), look at many book authors and illustrators. Many of w…

I expect book authors and artists to have very different opinions on this than programmers, because there isn't really a book/art equivalent of deliberately sharing open source libraries for other people to integrate into their projects. The closest is probably music sampling, which has had a very robust money-based licensing scheme built around it for many years.

I agree that this is another factor, and I'd like to get into some nuance of it...

If we go back to the RMS school of code sharing, which influenced much of contemporary open source, they're very big on licensing to control how the code is shared.

This was actually a break from some of the earlier thinking by some programmers (not all), that code is implicitly public domain, or should be. RMS said, yes, sharing is good, but we need rules to keep the sharing happening.

Once "open source" was coined (by ESR, et al.) they were also big on licensing, including RMS's licenses, but most of the reasons were more about commercial needs.

Since then, people participate in open source for a variety of reasons, many of them commercial-adjacent.

But I suspect most people don't think much about the hard-earned licenses that helped create the current environment, in which this wealth of loose sharing and collaborating is happening.

We're only starting to see the effects when some AI companies ignore the long tradition of licenses that built open source.

Writers and illustrators, on the other hand, as you say, don't have that tradition and institution. (There's also things like the sometimes tolerated gray area of fanfic using others' characters and situations, but AFAIK not official and organized like open source.)

And so maybe the essence of what's happening is more readily obvious to writers and illustrators, than it is to programmers.

Re: Don't fall into the anti-AI hype

#962

I don't understand the stance that AI currently is able to automate away non-trivial coding tasks. I've tried this consistently since GPT 3.5 came out, with every single SOTA model up to GPT 5.1 Codex Max and Opus 4.5. Every single time, I get something that works, yes, but then when I start self-reviewing the code, preparing to submit it to coworkers, I end up rewriting about 70% of the thing. So many important deta…

My experience with agents in larger / older codebases is that feedback loops are critical. They'll get it somewhere in the neighborhood of right on the first attempt; it's up to your prompt and tooling to guide them to improve it on correctness and quality. Basic checks: can the agent run the app, interact with it, and observe its state? If not, you probably won't get working code. Quality checks: by default, you'll get the same code quality as the code the agent reads while it's working; if your linters and prompts don't guide it towards your desired style, you won't get it.

To put that another way: one-shots attempts aren't where the win is in big codebases. Repeat iteration is, as long as your tooling steers it in the right direction.

Re: Don't fall into the anti-AI hype

#963

I don't understand the stance that AI currently is able to automate away non-trivial coding tasks. I've tried this consistently since GPT 3.5 came out, with every single SOTA model up to GPT 5.1 Codex Max and Opus 4.5. Every single time, I get something that works, yes, but then when I start self-reviewing the code, preparing to submit it to coworkers, I end up rewriting about 70% of the thing. So many important deta…

Agreed, but: There's been a notable jump over the course of the last few months, to where I'd say it's inevitable. For a while I was holding out for them to hit a ceiling where we'd look back and laugh at the idea they'd ever replace human coders. Now, it seems much more like a matter of time. Ultimately I think over the next two years or so, Anthropic and OpenAI will evolve their product from "coding assistant" to "…

If you research how something like Cursor works I don't think you would believe it is inevitable. The jump that would have to happen for it to replace engineers entirely is insurmountable. They can keep expanding contexts and coming up with clever ways to augment generation but I don't see it ever actually having full vision on the system, product and users.

Beyond that it is incredibly biased towards existing code & prompt content. If you wanted to build a voice chat app, and you said "should I use websockets or http?" It would say Websockets. It won't override you and say "Use neither, you should use webRTC", but an experienced engineer would spot that the prompt itself is flawed instantly. LLMs just will bias towards existing tokens in the prompt and won't surface data that would challenge the question itself.

Re: Don't fall into the anti-AI hype

#964
post #852

Why is this article getting so many upvotes? It follows the same pattern -- I was able to use [AI codong agent] to achieve [task], [task] and [task] within [time]. It would not be possible to do that without it. [My thoughts about this] Which is the same as dozens if not hundreds of similar articles already posted here, and the comments in the discussion don't explore any new perspectives either. I honestly don't und…

There are a lot of people who still say that coding agents don't work at all, it's all a NFT-style fad or scam pushed mainly by bad-faith hucksters looking to get a quick buck, etc, so it's refreshing to read something arguing otherwise - and this is antirez who created Redis, so someone who can speak from experience.

Re: Don't fall into the anti-AI hype

#965

How would we measure the effects of AI coding tool taking over manual coding ? Would we see an increase in the number of GitHub projects ? In the number of stars (given the ai is so good) ? In the number of start up ipos (surely if all your engineers are 1000x engineers thanks to Claude code, we'll have plenty of googles and Amazons to invest in) ? In the price of software (if I can just vibe code everything, than a…

Plot twist: the bottleneck when you have a development force multiplier is __MARKETING__. If you develop at 10X the rate, you still have to grind/growth marketing. Unmarketed products might as well not exist, even if they're fantastic. Github stars? That's 100% marketing. Shit that clears a low quality bar can rack up stars like crazy just by being well marketed. Number of startups? That's 100% marketing. Investors p…

Yes definitely. The average quality of Github projects, startup code may improve but there will probably not be many more stars on them or successful startups because it's immaterial and so easy to switch, the best project to do X becomes 100x more successful than the second-best project.

Re: Don't fall into the anti-AI hype

#966

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no hard part. The anti-AI position has simply become trite. The idea is that agentic coding does not work. Today, it does work.

Some people are also opposed because of the negative externalities when building and running AI systems (environmental consequences, intellectual property theft), even if they understand that agentic coding "works". This is a valid position.

I have not seen those arguments in the context of what I would consider anti-hype. But in any case: There are certainly issues attached to usage of AI more generally.

Re: Don't fall into the anti-AI hype

#967
post #98

> state of the art LLMs are able to complete large subtasks or medium size projects alone, almost unassisted, given a good set of hints about what the end result should be No. I agree with the author, but it's hyperbolic of him to phrase it like this. If you have solid domain knowledge, you'll steer the model with detailed specs. It will carry those out competently and multiply your productivity. However, the quality…

[deleted]

Re: Don't fall into the anti-AI hype

#968

I don't understand the stance that AI currently is able to automate away non-trivial coding tasks. I've tried this consistently since GPT 3.5 came out, with every single SOTA model up to GPT 5.1 Codex Max and Opus 4.5. Every single time, I get something that works, yes, but then when I start self-reviewing the code, preparing to submit it to coworkers, I end up rewriting about 70% of the thing. So many important deta…

LLMs tend to rise to the level of the complexity of the codebase. They are probabilistic pattern matching machines, after all. It's rare to have a 15 year old repo without significant complexity; is it possible that the reason LLMs have trouble with complex codebases is that the codebases are complex?

IMO it has nothing to do with LLMs. They just mirror the patterns they see - don't get upset when you don't like your own reflection! Software complexity is still bad. LLMs just shove it back in our face.

Implications: AI is always going to feel more effective on brand new codebases without any legacy weight. And less effective on "real" apps where the details matter.

The bias is strongly evident - you rarely hear anyone talking about how they vibe coded a coherent changeset to an existing repo.

Re: Don't fall into the anti-AI hype

#969
post #580

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Other people are just less picky than I am I think this is part of it. When coding style has been established among a team, or within an app, there are a lot of extra hoops to jump through, just to get it to look The Right Way, with no detectable benefit to the user. If you put those choices aside and simply say: does it accomplish the goal per the spec (and is safe and scalable[0]), then you can get away with a lo…

What's that old adage? "Programs must be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute."[1] [1] https://cs61a.org/articles/composition/

I wonder how well that works as a prompt.

Re: Don't fall into the anti-AI hype

#970

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed, but: There's been a notable jump over the course of the last few months, to where I'd say it's inevitable. For a while I was holding out for them to hit a ceiling where we'd look back and laugh at the idea they'd ever replace human coders. Now, it seems much more like a matter of time. Ultimately I think over the next two years or so, Anthropic and OpenAI will evolve their product from "coding assistant" to "…

If you research how something like Cursor works I don't think you would believe it is inevitable. The jump that would have to happen for it to replace engineers entirely is insurmountable. They can keep expanding contexts and coming up with clever ways to augment generation but I don't see it ever actually having full vision on the system, product and users. Beyond that it is incredibly biased towards existing code &…

Unless you, well, state in AGENTS.md that prompts may offer suboptimal options in which case it's the machine's duty to question them, treat the prompter like a coworker and not a boss.
Post reply on HN