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Meta torrented & seeded 81.7 TB dataset containing copyrighted data

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Re: Meta torrented & seeded 81.7 TB dataset containing copyrighted data

#961
post #954
post #953

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do not need copyright law. Just anti-liability licenses so i do not get sued. My interest is protecting myself, not the work. I believe all knowledge should be freely available and live by that. While I do not believe in IP law but I am happy to take money from those that do. I sell my time so long as the buyer allows my work to be freely licensed for all. They can do with their own copy whatever they want and not…

It honestly feels like your view on the topic is entirely defined around yourself. Like if a billionaire could genuinely not understand why people need medical insurance, because "you can just pay cash, like I do". You are in a special situation where customers pay for your time. Of course it's easy to say "as long as I am paid for my time, I want my work to be public". But say you create a video game. You invest two…

> But say you create a video game. You invest two years working on it, and at the end you sell it for 50$. The first customer buys it, and publishes online for everybody to download legally for free. Does that sound okay for you?

More users for my game! Wonderful. Every person playing, even for free, means more people talking about it if they like it. Give every digital thing away and get people sharing it with others. If a free game is popular a small subset that can afford it will pay you if you disclose, perhaps in the game, what your financial goals are and how far you are from them kindly, but without demand.

People should be proud they make anything in a crowded internet anyone feels worth copying and sharing. That attention can be monetized all sorts of ways if a creator is paying attention. Sell merch, or a funding campaign for new upgrades or extensions.

The pay what you want (or nothing) Humble Bundle model is a step in the right direction. Gets lots of exposure to indie devs who otherwise no one might trust to give any money to sight unseen otherwise.

Re: Meta torrented & seeded 81.7 TB dataset containing copyrighted data

#962
post #961
post #954

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It honestly feels like your view on the topic is entirely defined around yourself. Like if a billionaire could genuinely not understand why people need medical insurance, because "you can just pay cash, like I do". You are in a special situation where customers pay for your time. Of course it's easy to say "as long as I am paid for my time, I want my work to be public". But say you create a video game. You invest two…

> But say you create a video game. You invest two years working on it, and at the end you sell it for 50$. The first customer buys it, and publishes online for everybody to download legally for free. Does that sound okay for you? More users for my game! Wonderful. Every person playing, even for free, means more people talking about it if they like it. Give every digital thing away and get people sharing it with other…

> a small subset that can afford it will pay you if you disclose, perhaps in the game, what your financial goals are and how far you are from them kindly, but without demand.

But you are not the one publishing it! Someone else is, because they copied your public-domain game and put their name on it. That someone else is getting a lot of money, and you aren't.

> Wonderful

Really? I genuinely don't understand how you can not see how it is a problem?!

Re: Meta torrented & seeded 81.7 TB dataset containing copyrighted data

#963
post #962
post #961

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But say you create a video game. You invest two years working on it, and at the end you sell it for 50$. The first customer buys it, and publishes online for everybody to download legally for free. Does that sound okay for you? More users for my game! Wonderful. Every person playing, even for free, means more people talking about it if they like it. Give every digital thing away and get people sharing it with other…

> a small subset that can afford it will pay you if you disclose, perhaps in the game, what your financial goals are and how far you are from them kindly, but without demand. But you are not the one publishing it! Someone else is, because they copied your public-domain game and put their name on it. That someone else is getting a lot of money, and you aren't. > Wonderful Really? I genuinely don't understand how you c…

> But you are not the one publishing it! Someone else is, because they copied your public-domain game and put their name on it. That someone else is getting a lot of money, and you aren't.

That is going to happen. Not all countries have or enforce copyright laws even if you rely on those.

It would however be trivial for the author to go public proving the third party game used their code without attribution. Apple famously used openstreetmap data without crediting them and openstreetmap publicly shamed them until they corrected the mistake.

People should have attribution if they ask for it, but it also should not be legally enforced. Only socially and technically.

> Really? I genuinely don't understand how you can not see how it is a problem?!

Anyone in the connected world has likely benefited from software I have written or security bugs I have identified and helped get fixed. Some of that work took years with little to no pay.

If you can get my work to more people than I can, do it!

My experience is still easy enough to monetize enough on a contract basis to pay my bills, and that is plenty. Often people pay to prioritize what features I add to open source projects they benefit from. Paid or not, I am always happy knowing my work benefits as many people as possible, rather than having it benefit only those that can afford to pay for it. My ego is not so fragile as to demand my name be in everyone's faces all the time.

Our mission in life as humans should not be about maximizing dollar amounts in our bank accounts. It should be about maximizing the amount of value we can give back to society. If value can be copied and replicated to benefit a lot of people, that is amazing! Shame we cannot do that with food, but at least we can do it with information, media, etc.

Re: Meta torrented & seeded 81.7 TB dataset containing copyrighted data

#964
post #963
post #962

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a small subset that can afford it will pay you if you disclose, perhaps in the game, what your financial goals are and how far you are from them kindly, but without demand. But you are not the one publishing it! Someone else is, because they copied your public-domain game and put their name on it. That someone else is getting a lot of money, and you aren't. > Wonderful Really? I genuinely don't understand how you c…

> But you are not the one publishing it! Someone else is, because they copied your public-domain game and put their name on it. That someone else is getting a lot of money, and you aren't. That is going to happen. Not all countries have or enforce copyright laws even if you rely on those. It would however be trivial for the author to go public proving the third party game used their code without attribution. Apple fa…

> My ego is not so fragile as to demand my name be in everyone's faces all the time.

Yet you keep bringing everything back to you. "It's okay for me because I manage to get a decent salary". Sure, what about those who don't?

> People should have attribution if they ask for it, but it also should not be legally enforced. Only socially and technically.

Laws are here because reputation is not enough anymore in our world. Those who think that laws are unnecessary generally don't directly need them. Can you show some empathy and accept that some people need to be protected by more than reputation?

> That is going to happen. Not all countries have or enforce copyright laws even if you rely on those.

You mentioned Doctorow as an example, right? Do you even know what he thinks of BigTech abusing their power? He's totally for more regulations for those, not fewer.

Re: Meta torrented & seeded 81.7 TB dataset containing copyrighted data

#965
post #964
post #963

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But you are not the one publishing it! Someone else is, because they copied your public-domain game and put their name on it. That someone else is getting a lot of money, and you aren't. That is going to happen. Not all countries have or enforce copyright laws even if you rely on those. It would however be trivial for the author to go public proving the third party game used their code without attribution. Apple fa…

> My ego is not so fragile as to demand my name be in everyone's faces all the time. Yet you keep bringing everything back to you. "It's okay for me because I manage to get a decent salary". Sure, what about those who don't? > People should have attribution if they ask for it, but it also should not be legally enforced. Only socially and technically. Laws are here because reputation is not enough anymore in our world…

> Yet you keep bringing everything back to you. "It's okay for me because I manage to get a decent salary". Sure, what about those who don't?

You seem to be operating under the assumption I came to these views from an ivory tower.

I have been open sourcing all of the work I legally can since I was living in my car working on library computers. Yes. I stand by this for everyone.

I had no degree, no credentials, and the only reason I was able to make a career for myself as an uneducated vagrant is -because- my work was public and free, people often used it, and demonstrated my capabilities better than any degree could.

Plenty of peers have made careers for themselves the same way.

> Laws are here because reputation is not enough anymore in our world. Those who think that laws are unnecessary generally don't directly need them. Can you show some empathy and accept that some people need to be protected by more than reputation?

This -is- coming from a pace of empathy.

My meals as a kid sometimes came from food stamps and food pantries. Most of my early internet access came from abusing 30 day AOL trial dialup cds, and I had to wait in line 3 days for a $200 black friday sale laptop I could afford. I had to break a LOT of copyright laws to get unlimited access to information my local library did not have.

Laws work in a subset of countries, and a lot of countries straight up ignore them. That gives them a major advantage over us. They can pirate freely and openly to level up their skills and capabilities with no risk of legal consequences... and we cannot? Why should the poor in America not have the same free access to any digital goods the poor in other countries do?

> You mentioned Doctorow as an example, right? Do you even know what he thinks of BigTech abusing their power? He's totally for more regulations for those, not fewer.

My read of Cory Doctorow on these topics is that the copyright wars were a failed experiment. Copyright laws are almost mostly weaponized by big corporations to hurt individuals. We should regulate the shit out of corporations to protect the freedom and privacy of users and prevent monopolies. It is perfectly compatible to both anti-big-tech and also against the current IP law system.

https://gizmodo.com/cory-doctorow-copyright-laws-tech-antitr...

Re: Meta torrented & seeded 81.7 TB dataset containing copyrighted data

#966
post #959

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Liability laws often don't care if something is free.

Which is beside the point. The person I am answering to says that they don't believe in copyright laws, but still they use licenses like MIT. Why not using CC0 then?

"CC0 has not been approved by the Open Source Initiative and does not license or otherwise affect any patent rights you may have. You may want to consider using an approved OSI license that does so instead of CC0, such as GPL 3.0 or Apache 2.0."

https://wiki.creativecommons.org/wiki/CC0_FAQ

CC0 is great but it does not go far enough for software. Patent and trademark rights are complex and it caused CC0 to be withdrawn from OSI consideration.

https://lists.opensource.org/pipermail/license-review_lists....

I do not know why it has to be so legally complicated to say TAKE MY WORK IT IS FREE FOR ALL.

IMO ISC is the current best OSI approved option for ensuring technical work can be used as broadly as possible and is what I use for recent work.

https://www.tldrlegal.com/license/isc-license

Show me something OSI compatible less restrictive than ISC and I will use that.

Re: Meta torrented & seeded 81.7 TB dataset containing copyrighted data

#967

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nobody has responded to me with anything about how authors are harmed The same way good law-abiding folk are harmed when Heroin is introduced to the community. Then those people won't be able to lend you a cup of sugar, and may well start causing problems. AI books take off and are easy to digest, and before long your user base is quite literally too stupid to buy and read your book even if they wanted. And, for th…

> know to be morally reprehensible In your opinion, not to everyone. There has been no actual argument as to why it's supposedly "morally reprehensible."

I just explained how it's morally reprehensible. The argument is right there, above the quote you chose to quote. Neat trick, but I'm sorry, a retort that does not make.

Re: Meta torrented & seeded 81.7 TB dataset containing copyrighted data

#968

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> know to be morally reprehensible In your opinion, not to everyone. There has been no actual argument as to why it's supposedly "morally reprehensible."

I just explained how it's morally reprehensible. The argument is right there, above the quote you chose to quote. Neat trick, but I'm sorry, a retort that does not make.

You didn't explain anything about why it is so, you just said it is, hence why I said it's your opinion. If you can't explain why, in more concrete terms, then there is no reason to believe your argument.

Re: Meta torrented & seeded 81.7 TB dataset containing copyrighted data

#969

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stealing is not the right word perhaps, but it is bad, and this should be obvious. Because if you take the limit of these arguments as they approach infinity, it all falls apart. For piracy, take switch games. Okay, pirating Mario isn't stealing. Suppose everyone pirates Mario. Then there's no reason to buy Mario. Then Nintendo files bankruptcy. Then some people go hungry, maybe a few die. Then you don't have a switc…

> Because if you take the limit of these arguments as they approach infinity, it all falls apart. Not everyone is a Kantian, who has the moral philsophy you are talking about, the categorical imperative. See this [0] for a list of criticisms to said philosophy. > In a vacuum making an AI book is whatever. In the context of humanity and pushing this to it's limits, we can't even begin to comprehend the consequences. I…

> Not really a valid argument

It is, because the quote you quoted is in reference to what I said above.

I explained real consequences of pirating. Companies have gone under, individuals have been driven to suicide. This HAS happened.

It's logically consistent that if we do that, but increase the scale, then the harm will be proportionally increased.

You might disagree. Personally, I don't understand how. Really, I don't. My fundamental understanding of humanity is that each innovation will be pushed to it's limits. To make the most money, to do it as fast as possible, and in turn to harm the most people, if it is harmful. It is not in the nature of humanity to do something half-way when there's no friction to doing more.

This reality of humanity permeates our culture and societies. That's why the US government has checks and balances. Could the US government remain a democracy without them? Of course. We may have an infinite stream of benevolent leaders.

From my perspective, that is naive. And, certainly, the founding fathers agreed with me. That is one example - but look around you, and you will see this mentality permeates everything we do as a species.

Re: Meta torrented & seeded 81.7 TB dataset containing copyrighted data

#970

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stealing is not the right word perhaps, but it is bad, and this should be obvious. Because if you take the limit of these arguments as they approach infinity, it all falls apart. For piracy, take switch games. Okay, pirating Mario isn't stealing. Suppose everyone pirates Mario. Then there's no reason to buy Mario. Then Nintendo files bankruptcy. Then some people go hungry, maybe a few die. Then you don't have a switc…

> Stealing is not the right word perhaps, but it is bad, and this should be obvious. Many people say things that they don't like "should be obvious"ly bad. If you can't say why, that's almost always because it actually isn't. Have a look at almost any human rights push for examples. . > For piracy, take switch games. It's a bad metaphor. With piracy, someone is taking a thing that was on the market for money, and usi…

> The creator loses potential income

Okay. AI books make books 1 million times faster, let's say. Arbitrary, pick any number.

If I, a consumer, want a book, I am therefore 1 million times more likely to pick an AI book. Finding a "real" book takes insurmountable effort. This is the "needle in a haystack" I mentioned earlier.

The result is obvious - creators look potential money. And yes, it is actually obvious. If it isn't, reread it a few times.

To be perfectly and abundantly clear because I think you're purposefully misunderstanding me - I know AI is not piracy. I know that. It's, like, the second sentence I wrote. I said those words explicitly.

I am arguing that while it is not piracy, the harm it creates it identical in form to piracy. In your words, "creators lose potential income". If that is the standard, you must agree with me.

> how silly they sound to others

I'm not silly, you're just naive and fundamentally misunderstand how our societies work.

Capitalism is founded on one very big assumption. It is the jenga block keeping everything together.

Everyone must work. You don't work, you die. Nobody works, everyone dies.

Up until now, this assumption has been sound. The "edge cases", like children and disabled people, we've been able to bandaid with money we pool from everyone - what you know as taxes.

But consider what happens if this fundamental assumption no longer holds true. Products need consumers as much as consumers need products - it's a circular relationship. To make things you need money, to make money you must sell things, to buy things you must have money, and to have money you must make things. If you outsource the making things, there's no money - period. For anyone. Everyone dies. Or, more likely, the country collapses into a socialist revolution. Depending on what country this is, the level of bloodiness varies.

This has happened in the past already, with much more primitive technologies. FDR, in his capitalist genius, very narrowly prevented the US from falling into the socialist revolution with some aforementioned bandaid solutions - what we call "The New Deal". The scale at which we're talking about now is much larger, and the consequences more drastic. I am not confident another "New Deal" can be constructed, let alone implemented. And, I'm not confident it would prevent the death spiral. Again, we cut it very, very close last time.

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