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Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

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Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#961

Post by gorm »

hellojesus wrote: post #927
wolverine876 wrote: post #837

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Arab countries think Israel is trying to ethnically cleanse Gaza - drive out the Palestinians. They don't want to help Israel do that. > Russia doesn't allow ukrainians back to the occupied territories I don't know that to be true. AFAIK, Russia would like the population there too.

If Egypt were to abandon leave with Isreal, they would take in refugees and then allow them to return back across their border to Gaza. Maybe they fear that Isreal would bomb them, but it would be harder to politically justify if Egypt wasn't agressing AND the returning Palestinians were returning to create a peaceful state. The problem seems to be that Palestinians don't want peace, or are unable to separate themsel…

Yea, it will probably never end as Palestines have a right according to international law to attack Israel as they are occupied by them. Even if Hamas disappear as an organisation the resistance part will continue and there will probably never be peace until Palestines get the country they were promised and the illegal settlements are removed.

Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#962

Post by bjourne »

YZF wrote: post #960
bjourne wrote: post #958

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your argumentation is a form of damage control. Just like modern neo-Nazis either downplay, minimize, or try to justify atrocities committed by the Nazi regime you try to downplay, minimize or justify atrocities committed by the Israeli regime. The neo-Nazis say that the number of victims of the Holocaust is grossly overstated. You will say that there is no grounds for accusing Israel of genocide in Gaza. The neo-Naz…

This honestly does not deserve a reply. Your argument is that Israelis are Nazis and therefore Israelis are Nazis. You refuse to entertain the possibility that the literal Nazis here are the Hamas and their supporters despite all the evidence and their rhetoric saying so. Your comparison of Israel to Nazis is disgusting, ignorant and antisemitic. You're taking natural emotional responses when your people are brutally…

No, the argument is that Israeli Jews are acting exactly like Germans did during the Nazi era. They either don't care or they cheer on the slaughter of innocent civilians. The destruction of Gaza is more complete than the destruction of Dresden during WWI or of Warsaw after the ghetto uprising. Yet more than half of all Jewish Israelis think their army is using too little force! This and many other frightening statistics indicate that Jewish Israelis are just as genocidal as the Germans were or the Hutsi.

The difference is that Jewish Israelis have access to contrarian views. The Germans and Rwandans had no free press and no internet to access alternative opinions on. That the Jewish Israelis have, but by and large still choose fascism and murder is despicable.

> You're taking natural emotional responses

This bullshit makes you complicit. You're not in uniform, perhaps, but you are here online debate-lording your way to the last word. The Spanish government did not call for genocide after the 2004 Madrid attack (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_Madrid_train_bombings), nor did the French government after the 2015 Paris attack (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/November_2015_Paris_attacks). Neither Spain nor France took revenge on the Islamists by carpet-bombing civilians.

> Israel is within its rights to wage this war, it has good reasons, it is persecuting it within the norms for similar wars. It is not committing genocide and "your country is on trial for genocide" is bullshit and you know it.

No, I don't know it and neither does the court that decided to accept the case. No, Israel is not "persecuting it within the norms for similar wars". It currently has displaced almost all Gazans, destroyed over 50% of all buildings (that much more than Japan and Germany during WWII), and is starving children to death. If you can't see how fucking evil that is, you are a lost cause.

Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#963

Post by gryzzly »

YavuzKrgl wrote: post #732
gataca wrote: post #577

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Setting aside the fact that these are numbers provided by Hamas, the same people who claimed 500 people died in a hospital Israel bombed but when it was revealed their own rocket bombed it the casualty numbers dropped 10-fold, war isn’t arithmetic. The United States killed many more Japanese civilians than American civilians who died during the war, that doesn’t make them right. Hamas has miles of tunnels to provide…

It turned out that the footage presented by israel as "a rocket fired by the Islamic Jihad fell on the hospital" was a lie.[0] [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32Qp8hVg9X0

TRT is a Turkish public broadcast service. Erdogan openly supports Hamas.

Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#964

Post by gryzzly »

incognos wrote: post #806
reducesuffering wrote: post #748

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I abhor any rapes perpetuated against humans of any kind. Why are you deflecting my correction that GP’s “There is zero credible evidence that any rape took place” is wrong?

https://thegrayzone.com/2024/03/07/media-concocts-un-hamas-r... “In the medicolegal assessment of available photos and videos, no tangible indications of rape could be identified,” the report concluded.

"The Grayzone is an American fringe,[7] far-left[19] news website and blog,[23] founded and edited by American journalist Max Blumenthal"

"It is known for its negative coverage of American foreign policy,[1][4] misleading reporting,[25][26] and sympathetic coverage of authoritarian regimes."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Grayzone

Excellent sources!

Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#965

Post by bjourne »

bjourne wrote: post #962
YZF wrote: post #960

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This honestly does not deserve a reply. Your argument is that Israelis are Nazis and therefore Israelis are Nazis. You refuse to entertain the possibility that the literal Nazis here are the Hamas and their supporters despite all the evidence and their rhetoric saying so. Your comparison of Israel to Nazis is disgusting, ignorant and antisemitic. You're taking natural emotional responses when your people are brutally…

No, the argument is that Israeli Jews are acting exactly like Germans did during the Nazi era. They either don't care or they cheer on the slaughter of innocent civilians. The destruction of Gaza is more complete than the destruction of Dresden during WWI or of Warsaw after the ghetto uprising. Yet more than half of all Jewish Israelis think their army is using too little force! This and many other frightening statis…

Sorry, this was harsh. HN does not allow you to edit comments otherwise I would.

Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#966

Post by rakoo »

nsguy wrote: post #935
rakoo wrote: post #544

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And I can also say that your view is less context than a personal biased view on the situation. Mixing up Hamas and Palestinians as if they're all the same. Excusing Israel's response as just and proportionate, meaning that shelling entire neighborhoods, sniping people left and right, shooting at an ambulance are somehow fighting terrorism. Saying on all platforms that the goal is to "exterminate animals", from the h…

I think we do agree given your last sentence. I'll sign on to that. On the details of the history this wasn't "my country come to your land and forced you to leave" it was more like "Jewish people immigrated to this region, their historic homeland, many expelled from their homes in Europe and the middle east and had no options" (compare e.g. to Chinese people from Hong Kong immigrating to Canada) and "war started by…

Thanks for providing your pov, it explains a lot of things and even though I have my views I can totally understand why we disagree:

> Jewish immigration to the region was legal

This is the crux of where we disagree. It was legal based on international law, but international law is just western law: Palestinians and neighboring countries said no, and under the same international law they were in the right: they have the right to self-determination. So if we take the legal point, the argument is not receivable

> and should be viewed as moral on many levels

That's plainly subjective and my own thinking makes me say it's immoral to displace hundreds of thousands of people and take their homes, their land, their food, just because.

> But this is not what most people talk about when they say Israel is a colonist. What most people mean is the existence of the state of Israel is the "settlement"

I disagree, anyone I've seen talking about the colonialist aspect of Israel is specifically all the illegal settlements outside its borders, it's the massive control of Palestinian population, it's forbidding them access to their own sea, that kind of things. Everyone who talks about it is clear.

When people talk about the existence of Israel and its racist laws, they will rather use the term "apartheid" which is closer to the truth.

In any case, those disagreements are to be put in perspective to what we both agree on, and that is the nice note of this discussion :)

Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#967

Post by fortzi »

archagon wrote: post #302
samatman wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Things are very simple in my eyes. If tens of thousands of innocents are dying without an end in sight, there is a bleed that needs to be stemmed immediately. It does not matter who started it or whether the crisis is being used as propaganda or leverage. The truth is on the ground. It would be great to "defeat Hamas" as a solution, but I'm not sure how that's feasible at this point without razing Gaza.

Things are not simple, and a simplistic take of this matter is very prevalent, sadly. I mean, what are even the real numbers? Did you forget about the Hamas rocket hitting a hospital in Gaza, which they claimed was Israel's bombing that killed 500 civilians? Later they settled on 50, when it was widely accepted that it was their doing. Fighting Hamas is hard, mostly because it uses civilian population and infrastructure to its benefit, but what are the alternatives? reward Hamas' actions by letting them off the hook? I haven't heard any other suggestion on how do deal with Hamas except for fighting them head on.

Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#968

Post by fortzi »

hef19898 wrote: post #478
Scarblac wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What's the point of hiding soldiers among civilian targets if Israel is just going to bomb the civilian targets Getting international opinion to turn against Israel. Thats the way Hamas can survive this, getting enough pressure on Israel to make them stop.

One, Hamas isn't doing this. No proof beyond the inevitable effects of fighting in one of the most densly populated areas on this planet. Two, Israel is doing an incredible good job at putting the pressure on themselves right now.

> One, Hamas isn't doing this.

You sound confident, stating it like it's a fact. Care to share your sources?

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