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'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

aljazeera.com

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Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#961

Post by biorach »

ejb999 wrote: post #954
biorach wrote: post #937

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Japan and Germany have been pretty well behaved since the Allies ground them to the dust during WW2 - why do you think it couldn't work here? The grinding into dust was a small part of the reason for the successful outcome The main victor in WWII poured vast resources into rebuilding the economies of Germany and Japan, ensured their viability as nation states, fostered democracy and encouraged the creation of an en…

grinding them into the dust was not a 'small part of the reason', it was the only reason it worked in the first place. What do you think would have happened had the allies given billions of dollars in aid to Germany while the Nazi's were still in power? They would do exactly what the Palestinians have done with the aid they got - bought more weapons and killed more Jews. Palestine has already received much, much, muc…

The reality on the ground in the West Bank runs contrary to this story.

Two infitadas crushed, Arafat long dead, a supine administration facilitates Israeli military occupation, Israeli settlers continue to pour in, expropriation and colonisation continue, the Israeli army dominates a territory where things only change for the worse for Palestinians.

In the West Bank "destroying the terrorists and their supporters that run the country" had lead to settlers and the army forcing Palestinians into every smaller enclaves making a Palestinian state increasingly unviable.

So no. Please do not claim that "grinding them into the dust" is going to lead to a better future for Palestinians. It is leading to colonisation and oppression.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#962

Post by 15457345234 »

dappermanneke wrote: post #885
neonsunset wrote: post #849

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are two possibilities: - This submission is being kept up out of personal agenda (in which case, fair, we can vote with out feet and voices on other platforms) - This submission is being kept up out of genuine belief. That would constitute an adjective used to describe a person who inadvertently helps their enemies (which Iranian proxies are). On another note, the article contents - most of it is just poor cond…

[flagged]

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Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#963

Post by davesque »

dang wrote: post #824
davesque wrote: post #410

It's really disappointing to see so many exceptions to the no politics rule right when we need that rule the most. There really isn't anything to be gained by discussing stories like this. We all know that atrocities are taking place. It's a war zone. A̶l̶s̶o̶,̶ ̶i̶t̶'̶s̶ ̶a̶ ̶ ̶g̶l̶a̶r̶i̶n̶g̶l̶y̶ ̶ ̶b̶a̶d̶ ̶l̶o̶o̶k̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶a̶r̶t̶i̶c̶l̶e̶s̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶h̶a̶v̶e̶ ̶r̶e̶c̶e̶n̶t̶l̶y̶ ̶b̶e̶e̶n̶ ̶a̶l̶l̶o̶w̶e̶d̶ ̶…

As vore's reply points out, HN does not have a no politics rule. If you want to know how we think about this, there are lots of past explanations at https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so... . If you look at some of those and still have a question that isn't answered there, I'd be happy to take a look. See also https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17014869 for the history of "HN is getting too p…

Sure, although it does often seem that the convention we have around it amounts to a de facto rule. And I really struggle to see how this article passes the usual test of "satisfying intellectual curiosity". It's mostly an emotional appeal that doesn't give much information. We certainly know that atrocities took place on Oct. 7 and I'm sure none of us are surprised to hear first hand accounts from the Palestinian side that are also horrific.

As many people have pointed out, the article comes from a heavily biased source. Saying that the article itself is interesting, regardless of the source, not only appears to overlook the quality of the article's content, but it also glosses over the harm that referring to biased sources does to the conversation. It seems like way oversimplifying the way that fraught conversations like this tend to go to just claim that the article itself should stand on its own. And, again, it could easily be argued that this article, in fact, doesn't stand on its own.

Also, in this moment, referring me to a list of past instances of people claiming that "HN is getting too political" feels pretty dismissive. I don't doubt that people have claimed that in the past, but that's not some sort of balm that makes me feel any less justified in claiming it now.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#964

Post by devenvdev »

mikojan wrote: post #537
prmph wrote: post #415

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For example, Gaza had been described as an open air prison for almost 2 decades because its borders, imports, sea usage, had all been controlled by Israel. Those restrictions are in place for a reason, which Hamas has confirmed on October 7th. And, what suffering does this cause exactly? Gaza had an HDI larger than that of many countries not at war, and had areas described as "wealthy". Any close reading of this co…

> Under such circumstances, what should Israel do? Pack up their bags and leave? That is exactly what they should do: End the occupation.

How? There are generations born in Israel, people who have nothing to do with occupation, they were born into this situation same like Palestinians. Why would they leave?

My father is Belorussian jew, mother Dagestanian Ukrainian, I was born in Russia. I'm Israely. Where exactly do you want me to pack up my bags and leave? Because I WILL fight you if you'll try to deport me to Russia...

I consider calls "to end the occupation" a sign of lack of understanding of the other side, we have nowhere to go.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#965

Post by gigel82 »

jonathanstrange wrote: post #884

Flagging this submission should lead to its removal. I'm very disappointed that HN allows political topics now. It's well-known that discussion of one-sided articles like this one doesn't lead to good discussions. It's clearly political, and, even worse, based on a one-sided submission pointing to Al Jazeera, which is driven by ideology and known for publishing way more radical articles in Arabic than in English. The…

We'd all like fair, subjective reporting from this region but with one side's track record of killing journalists, not only Al Jazeera's[1] but also Associated Press[2], Reuters[3], and many others[4] I guess we'll have to take what we can get.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shireen_Abu_Akleh

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruction_of_al-Jalaa_Buildi...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deaths_of_Simone_Camilli_and_A...

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Issam_Abdallah

[4] https://cpj.org/reports/2023/05/deadly-pattern-20-journalist...

[4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_journalists_killed_dur...

[4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_journalists_killed_in_...

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#966

Post by shiroiuma »

bena wrote: post #198
blaufast wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same. Then reminds me that the creation of the United States was based on strategic, coordinated genocide and I feel even worse.

Not an inch of land on this planet isn't soaked with the blood of conquerors and the conquered alike.

I agree with your sentiment, but there are a few places that haven't been bloodily conquered, such as Antarctica.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#967

Post by smashah »

vacuity wrote: post #457
blaufast wrote: post #437

I suspect a very large number of people are too smart to speak up, but also resentful of the forces that work to prevent actual nuanced dialogue. That's certainly the sentiment in my bubble. As somebody who isn't fond of the idea of an ethnostate and sees atrocities coming from all of the actors here, I don't feel comfortable speaking up due to the lack of nuance in public forums.

I hear you. While reading your comment, I had the thought "'atrocities coming from all of the actors'? Are you saying they're equally bad?" Of course, that's not what you said and there are far better responses if one is concerned about debating the relative moral standings of Israel and Hamas. It was more of a kneejerk reaction, and I quickly dismissed that from rational consideration, but the fact that I thought it…

On a scale of 1-10, how nuanced is an Israeli Extermination Force executing a holocaust upon the prisoners of the Gaza concentration camp?

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#968

Post by jonathanstrange »

gigel82 wrote: post #965
jonathanstrange wrote: post #884

Flagging this submission should lead to its removal. I'm very disappointed that HN allows political topics now. It's well-known that discussion of one-sided articles like this one doesn't lead to good discussions. It's clearly political, and, even worse, based on a one-sided submission pointing to Al Jazeera, which is driven by ideology and known for publishing way more radical articles in Arabic than in English. The…

We'd all like fair, subjective reporting from this region but with one side's track record of killing journalists, not only Al Jazeera's[1] but also Associated Press[2], Reuters[3], and many others[4] I guess we'll have to take what we can get. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shireen_Abu_Akleh [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruction_of_al-Jalaa_Buildi... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deaths_of_Simone_Cami…

On the contrary, nobody should allow Hamas to make things up or rely on unreliable and extremely biased sources like Al Jazeera, and take that "for what you get" without any critical examination because journalists have been killed in a combat zone. That's not how to obtain reliable information.

The real problem with political threads like this on HN is that HN has no way of muting individual persons. This is not good for anyone. Normally, I'd just mute your account and go on, that's how I deal with bad faith arguers on Reddit and it works great. Alas, HN doesn't have this possibility, so they really need to avoid flamebait topics like this one.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#969

Post by michalhosna »

banku_brougham wrote: post #5

Im glad to see the community engage with this -- there couldnt be a more significant current event happening right now and its jarring that it would be so silent. Edit: And why is it relevant here? At a minimum coworkers are suffering silently through it. The emotional damage just for internet bystanders is staggering.

> there couldnt be a more significant current event happening right now

Not that this should be a competition, but there still are other wars with atrocities/genocides happening at the moment.

E.g. Ukraine

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#970

Post by wahnfrieden »

jonathanstrange wrote: post #968
gigel82 wrote: post #965

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We'd all like fair, subjective reporting from this region but with one side's track record of killing journalists, not only Al Jazeera's[1] but also Associated Press[2], Reuters[3], and many others[4] I guess we'll have to take what we can get. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shireen_Abu_Akleh [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruction_of_al-Jalaa_Buildi... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deaths_of_Simone_Cami…

On the contrary, nobody should allow Hamas to make things up or rely on unreliable and extremely biased sources like Al Jazeera, and take that "for what you get" without any critical examination because journalists have been killed in a combat zone. That's not how to obtain reliable information. The real problem with political threads like this on HN is that HN has no way of muting individual persons. This is not goo…

I will continue to post such material as long as I have moderator support to do so. I think there's more to it than "flamewar"
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