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Arrest made in SF killing of Bob Lee – alleged killer also worked in tech

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Re: Arrest made in SF killing of Bob Lee – alleged killer also worked in tech

#961
post #912

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd say that the lesson learned needs to be broader than that. Any time Texas, California, Portland etc are mentioned the culture warriors of the left and right come out. The effect is a lot of lost trust for each other in this community when that happens. I do appreciate the people who posted on the other thread saying they were wrong about assuming a homeless person did it, but this won't be the last time culture w…

Certainly there are some culture warriors, who use these situations only as springboards to their pre-existing and unmovable opinions about those on the Other Side. But it’s not all culture war. I like to think that in HN it’s all legitimate viewpoints.

And relevant to HN is that, culture wars aside, it involves challenging and interesting problems (homelessness, drugs, petty crime). There are multiple approaches to situations like these and the best solutions could well be a compromise.

Re: Arrest made in SF killing of Bob Lee – alleged killer also worked in tech

#962
post #865
post #827

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The top part of Joe Eskenazi’s earlier article https://missionlocal.org/2023/04/bob-lee-crazy-bob-mobilecoi... was good (where he reported evidence that the Bob Lee killing was not a robbery), but I agree with Garry Tan that the bottom part of the article (where he makes a broader commentary on whether San Francisco is “safe” unrelated to Bob Lee) is gaslighting and reductionist. It makes many claims and implications…

I think you are trying to pigeonhole Eskenazi's argument into the standard "progressives don't care about crime" punditry that's popular on the right. I would suggest re-reading the column with a more open mind. His argument is that feeling safe is as important, if not more important from a policymaking perspective, as empirical measures of safety ("real risk") such as violent crime rate. He is in fact arguing the ex…

> His argument is that feeling safe is as important, if not more important from a policymaking perspective

I’ll set aside his smear that opponents of crime come from suburbs and his strawman that those who oppose crime only want “more cops, stiffer sentences and a return to the Gov. Reagan-era incarceration of the mentally ill”.

His main argument is that by “objective” measures, San Francisco is safe and any increase in danger is only subjective “feelings”, but that “feelings” still affect tourism and politics. The first part (which is the same party line we have seen in the SF Chronicle) is the gaslighting. I want to distinguish between psychological feelings, and risk which can be real but not fully measurable. I hypothesize that for many residents, actual risk of injury, not just feelings, has increased over the past 5 years. There are many mechanisms by which risk may not show up in the citywide violence statistics. Crimes may shift from one neighborhood to another (e.g. to touristy places) or from one demographic to another (e.g. against Asians) while staying steady citywide. Armed robbers may primarily target wealthier people who give them what they want, but victims who have less to lose and resist are more likely to be attacked. Underage thieves may injure you through reckless driving instead of attacks. With fewer pedestrians commuting after COVID-19, a street that is more dangerous may get fewer violent incidents. Or victims may underreport crimes. The point is, when there are so many changes in behavior among commuters, thieves, and addicts, I don’t believe a couple citywide metrics give the whole picture.

> you have issues with him based on unrelated reporting on an issue you seem to care deeply about

That’s just the most egregious example. I learned to read Eskenazi’s articles skeptically because I often read him pushing one lazy narrative but not getting the details right or not getting the other side of the argument. Another example is this article on Proposition 22 https://missionlocal.org/2020/09/prop-22-chronicle-uber-lyft.... In it, he claims that “Airbnb and its ilk skirted paying hotel taxes for years… And they kept their money”, which is not true; Airbnb settled with the city to pay all the 15% hotel back taxes which exceeded their own 6% revenue during that time. And notice how overtly one-sided that article is; it makes no attempt to get the other side of the delivery issue and whether paying drivers who are are waiting at home with their app open makes any business sense for Uber or for taxi dispatch companies for that matter. Another example I recall is the reporting on HubHaus https://missionlocal.org/2019/08/san-francisco-rental-platfo... which claimed without evidence that the room share company was “exacerbating the already onerous cost of housing” and showed very little interest in what it would take to actually follow the definition of family, and whether the definition of family itself is what is exacerbating the housing crisis. He is good at ferreting out a certain kind of bureaucratic corruption (e.g. DBI), but he turns a blind eye to other kinds of corrupt rules that benefit incumbents that politicians like Arron Peskin (coincidentally one of his favorite sources) specialize in. In other words, he’s biased, and you often get only one side from his articles.

Re: Arrest made in SF killing of Bob Lee – alleged killer also worked in tech

#963
post #793
post #548

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please don't take HN threads into ideological flamewar hell. Your comment was great until the last paragraph, which swerved dramatically for the worse and basically drove the subthread off a cliff. Comments demonizing other people and/or other groups of people are the scourge of internet forums. If you make it "y'all", that's worse yet, as now the demonized group gets to select itself and feel personally attacked. ht…

I can't help but wonder why it's prudent to sweep in for a comment like that, but not any of the comments that have been associating homelessness with murder rates on an article apparently about a dispute between two tech workers. It's almost like the guidelines are catered not towards high-quality discussion so much as an aesthetic of high-quality discussion by protecting the emotions of a specific class of people w…

We're not protecting any "specific class of people". Anyone with an insight to offer about homelessness, or any other question under discussion, is welcome to do it. We just ask people not to rage at and/or demonize each other, because that's the way that internet forums destroy themselves. Scorched earth isn't interesting to anybody: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu....

People often think that if we moderate comment X, we must care less about or even be endorsing comment Y, but that's not the case. We just see a more-or-less random sample of the comments. If you see a post that ought to have been moderated but hasn't been, the likeliest explanation is that we didn't see it. You can help by flagging it or emailing us at hn@ycombinator.com.

https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Arrest made in SF killing of Bob Lee – alleged killer also worked in tech

#964
post #591

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please don't take HN threads into flamewar hell. We ban accounts that do that, and have had to ask you more than once before. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27723540 (July 2021) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27692859 (June 2021) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20282471 (June 2019) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17352039 (June 2018)

It is not “starting a flame war” to point out the masses of comments that rushed to draw racist and xenophobic conclusions about the killers identity before this information was revealed. If you as moderators of HN do not moderate such behaviour in the first place, then don’t be surprised to find that users might take it into their own hands.

You could have made that point without garish flamebait like "tech executives to be forcibly housed in a palace against their will". If you had done so instead, I would have had no reason to post a moderation reply.

We're not trying to combat anyone's substantive points. We're just trying to prevent garden-variety internet destructiveness. As you have a history of the latter, it would be good if you'd review the site guidelines and take them more to heart: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.

Re: Arrest made in SF killing of Bob Lee – alleged killer also worked in tech

#965
post #865
post #827

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The top part of Joe Eskenazi’s earlier article https://missionlocal.org/2023/04/bob-lee-crazy-bob-mobilecoi... was good (where he reported evidence that the Bob Lee killing was not a robbery), but I agree with Garry Tan that the bottom part of the article (where he makes a broader commentary on whether San Francisco is “safe” unrelated to Bob Lee) is gaslighting and reductionist. It makes many claims and implications…

I think you are trying to pigeonhole Eskenazi's argument into the standard "progressives don't care about crime" punditry that's popular on the right. I would suggest re-reading the column with a more open mind. His argument is that feeling safe is as important, if not more important from a policymaking perspective, as empirical measures of safety ("real risk") such as violent crime rate. He is in fact arguing the ex…

> I think you are trying to pigeonhole Eskenazi's argument into the standard "progressives don't care about crime" punditry that's popular on the right. I would suggest re-reading the column with a more open mind. His argument is that feeling safe is as important, if not more important from a policymaking perspective, as empirical measures of safety ("real risk") such as violent crime rate.

From the article:

> But the city’s violent crime rate is at a near-historic low, and is lower than most mid-to-large-sized cities.

> Lee’s death, however, was packaged in the media and on social media into a highlight reel of recent San Francisco misfortunes and crimes: large groups of young people brawling at Stonestown; the abrupt closure of the mid-market Whole Foods, leaving San Franciscans just eight other Whole Foods within city limits; the severe beating of former fire commissioner Don Carmignani in the Marina District, allegedly by belligerent homeless people — it all adds up to a feeling of a city coming undone.

> This manner of coverage, however, does not capture the actual lived experience of the vast majority of San Franciscans.

I'm reading his article again.. where is his argument that feeling safe is important?

He states that violent crime is low, and that newspapers shouldn't be cherry-picking and sensationalizing how bad it is, and that he knows this is not the actual experience for the vast majority of San Franciscans.

Re: Arrest made in SF killing of Bob Lee – alleged killer also worked in tech

#966

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After the murder, I had to read scores of comments like this ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35456168 ) about the homeless, need for more law enforcement (although the US already incarcerates more of its population than any industrialized country) etc. I had to read scores of tech bros in the professional-managerial class whinge about the poor, about black lives matter and how this was due to "progressivism".…

>After the murder, I had to read scores of comments like this[...] >I had to read scores of tech bros [...] Did you though? I can't recommend enough cutting out reading people's comments that you don't want to read. If other people's comments stress you out and make you angry, there are typically actions you can take to expose yourself less to them.

It was obvious that commenters on HN were wilding out about this specific case—but even though the outpouring of rage about homelessness/Chesa Boudin/race/etc was clearly out of proportion with this single incident, it was useful to read people's thoughts. Just because people think differently than I do, doesn't make me less inclined to want to hear them or understand them. In this case, it was illuminating to see that there were so many people who were primed to perpetuate that narrative.

Re: Arrest made in SF killing of Bob Lee – alleged killer also worked in tech

#967
post #440

It’s pretty incredible to me that the whole community on the last thread was fixated on the fact that it must’ve been the homeless/drug addicts. What kind of place is it where you immediately dismiss premeditated murder, or even throw it up as 50-50?

I think a lot people probably experienced or witnessed petty theft or assault, and figured those same people might commit murder at a high rate. When you have a personal experience like that, or multiple, the natural reaction is to apply that experience to another situation.

It actually says a lot about SF that people would jump to that conclusion. SF is not in a good place. It has deteriorated over the past 2 decades. But it's not why Bob Lee is dead.

Re: Arrest made in SF killing of Bob Lee – alleged killer also worked in tech

#968
post #22

As the news media and twitterverse peddled the whole "crime-ridden SF" angle, I felt myself getting drawn into the same topic and agreeing with numerous friends on how much the city has declined. This is a good reminder of how we gravitate towards powerful emotional narratives, which in the moment can feel absolutely true despite an utter lack of supporting facts on an individual murder case. I hope this brings some…

So, SF isn’t crime ridden now? Did someone not just die? Is murder only a crime when it’s a complete stranger?

Re: Arrest made in SF killing of Bob Lee – alleged killer also worked in tech

#969
post #963
post #793

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't help but wonder why it's prudent to sweep in for a comment like that, but not any of the comments that have been associating homelessness with murder rates on an article apparently about a dispute between two tech workers. It's almost like the guidelines are catered not towards high-quality discussion so much as an aesthetic of high-quality discussion by protecting the emotions of a specific class of people w…

We're not protecting any "specific class of people". Anyone with an insight to offer about homelessness, or any other question under discussion, is welcome to do it. We just ask people not to rage at and/or demonize each other, because that's the way that internet forums destroy themselves. Scorched earth isn't interesting to anybody: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu... . People often thin…

Maybe I wasn't clear enough with my criticism: You are unambiguously making a value judgement that the feelings of people who get offended by comments like "Y'all colonized the poorest parts of the city and gave the poorest folks nowhere to go" are more important than the homeless who are being baselessly accused of being murderers. I don't think you honestly expect me to believe this discrepancy is simply because you "see a more-or-less random sample of the comments", but if that is the case, simply search for "homeless" in the relevant discussions and have at it -- if you still can't see the problem, then read the results again replacing "homeless" with "y'all" or "people like you" and see if you feel the same way about whether they could use commenting on. The only way you can possibly justify the way the guidelines has been handled is if it operates on the idea that people who are less represented here, such as the homeless, don't deserve the same courtesy.

Re: Arrest made in SF killing of Bob Lee – alleged killer also worked in tech

#970

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because a person was arrested doesn't mean that they did it. Let's wait for the trial and verdict.

As opposed to the status quo before, when we had no suspects, yet there were many many comments immediately rushing to blame homeless people?

Just trying to be holier than everyone. :smug grin:
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