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Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

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Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#961

Post by burnte »

LudwigNagasena wrote: post #837
burnte wrote: post #675

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Free speech is more than just an amendment to the constitution. It is also a doctrine that knowledge and discussion should generally be free, and that people shouldn't be persecuted for their beliefs. Should be persecuted BY THE GOVERNMENT. At no point has any nation held that all people should be able to say whatever they want at any time with zero repercussions from anywhere. You can yell in a crowded theater, an…

What is “the government” in a democracy?

The government apparatus, as only that has the power to fine you, jail you, etc.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#962

Post by burnte »

byyll wrote: post #946
burnte wrote: post #675

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Free speech is more than just an amendment to the constitution. It is also a doctrine that knowledge and discussion should generally be free, and that people shouldn't be persecuted for their beliefs. Should be persecuted BY THE GOVERNMENT. At no point has any nation held that all people should be able to say whatever they want at any time with zero repercussions from anywhere. You can yell in a crowded theater, an…

Quoted post unavailable.

> So the freedom of speech of the group of people on twitter is not freedom from the consequence of "doxxing".

No one is ever free of consequences with respect to free speech. I can march around a college town with a tiki torch yelling racist bullshit, and if I make the news and get fired, that's just how it goes. Don't say anything on twitter you wouldn't otherwise say in public to strangers.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#963

Post by no-dr-onboard »

nicbou wrote: post #952
no-dr-onboard wrote: post #922

Supporting the removal of a problematic site ( as though that would do the trick ) at the expense of setting a bad president is a profoundly oblique way to go about things. A few years ago people urged CDNs and ISPs to drop the Daily Caller, then it was Parler, and for numerous times it was 4/8chan. At what point do we admit that the solution to extremism isn’t in blocking sites where this activity collaborates? This…

Isn't the other option to facilitate it? There's no inaction here, since you provide a service to that group. You choose between turning a blind eye or kicking them out.

That’s a false dichotomy.

Tolerance of something you don’t like is a choice. It’s a particularly meaningful choice when you are restraining the urge to act for the sake of downstream consequences and future generations.

Note that I’m not suggesting to turn a blind eye either.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#964

Post by bitwize »

_vvaw wrote: post #956
bitwize wrote: post #916

APNIC has, apparently, withdrawn the IP addresses and ASN for Kiwi Farms. Fuck with the trans community, get blackholed. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

So the trans community stands with Keffals, a documented child groomer and provider of puberty blockers + hormones to minors behind their parents' backs? https://archive.ph/HY4hK Promoter (again, to children) of sketchy Internet pharmacies that sell hormones with anime lolita box art and labels that say “keep away from parents”? https://archive.ph/zZMRp

The trans community stands against doxxing, harassing, swatting, and stalking one of their own because of her gender identity and activist activities. Because they know, in cisnormative society, they'll be next. Of course, Kiwi Farms does not condone that sort of behavior (wink wink, nudge nudge). Once Kiwi Farms is down for good, I'm sure there will be Twitter bickerfests and slapfights about this and other issues (apparently Keffals is racist too?), but as long as Kiwi Farms is around, it is a direct existential threat to trans people and the community will be pretty united in making sure it is not allowed to operate on the public internet.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#965

Post by Sohcahtoa82 »

logicalmonster wrote: post #630
spurgelaurels wrote: post #420

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This wasn't just due to Twitter outrage. People are actually being targeted and harmed through this site. Hate and harm are not covered under free speech.

> This wasn't just due to Twitter outrage. People are actually being targeted and harmed through this site. I'm saying the following comment without knowing much about Kiwifarms and the back and forth drama about it other than some of the surface-level accusations. If people there were engaging in false swatting or other crimes, sure throw the book at those individuals. That's reprehensible behavior, and should be tr…

> But one big reason that I think taking down a website like this is very morally questionable without a court order is that there's no way for the public to know what really happened. Was Kiwifarms the site engaging in bad behavior, or were a few individual users there guilty of crimes?

Kiwi Farms exists solely to serve as a breeding ground for harassers.

This is not a case of some bad actors on the forum and mods/admins aren't doing anything about it because they're either, lazy, incompetent, or simply can't keep up. That would be true in the case of a site like reddit.

No, the owners of Kiwi Farms are actively malicious and encourage bad behavior.

Honestly, your comment feels like bad faith. It could be summed up as "I don't know anything about Kiwi Farms, therefore, nobody else does either, and they could be being unfairly targeted just because of a few bad actors on the site."

> Organizing harm against others probably isn't considered free speech by most legal systems or philosophers

Organizing harm against others is essentially the mission statement for Kiwi Farms.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#966

Post by koheripbal »

cywick wrote: post #936
rowanG077 wrote: post #839

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not about who is more worthy of protection. And viewing it that way is incredibly dangerous. It's about what cost you are willing to pay for that protection. Ex: we have a pretty clear innocent until proven guilty justice system. This means there will always be people who are guilty who will not be punished. We can make that less likely by just throwing every suspect into jail. This protects the general public b…

> Ex: we have a pretty clear innocent until proven guilty justice system. The high bar of "innocent until proven guilty" (and "beyond a reasonable doubt") only applies to criminal cases, though, and not to civil ones. The present situation is much more analogous to a civil case where you have to weigh the interests of two parties (i.e., Kiwifarms and their victims) against each other.

Even civil cases require material preponderance of evidence.

Online mobs need only confirmation bias.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#967

Post by logicalmonster »

Sohcahtoa82 wrote: post #965
logicalmonster wrote: post #630

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This wasn't just due to Twitter outrage. People are actually being targeted and harmed through this site. I'm saying the following comment without knowing much about Kiwifarms and the back and forth drama about it other than some of the surface-level accusations. If people there were engaging in false swatting or other crimes, sure throw the book at those individuals. That's reprehensible behavior, and should be tr…

> But one big reason that I think taking down a website like this is very morally questionable without a court order is that there's no way for the public to know what really happened. Was Kiwifarms the site engaging in bad behavior, or were a few individual users there guilty of crimes? Kiwi Farms exists solely to serve as a breeding ground for harassers. This is not a case of some bad actors on the forum and mods/a…

> Kiwi Farms exists solely to serve as a breeding ground for harassers.

> Organizing harm against others is essentially the mission statement for Kiwi Farms.

How are you such an informed expert in Kiwifarm's culture and mission statement?

Your opinion may or may not reflect reality, but you don't sound the slightest bit objective about this at all.

And given all of the censoring and deplatforming that has been done in the last few years, how can an outside observer take any of these types claims at face value? Whatever marginal trust I've had in taking these kinds of claims at face value has been squandered by censorious pricks.

> No, the owners of Kiwi Farms are actively malicious and encourage bad behavior.

First hand citations in context that can simply be judged for myself?

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#968

Post by Teever »

account42 wrote: post #939
Teever wrote: post #928

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But isn't that a catch-22? If the twitter mob wasn't successful in getting KF kicked off, than KF would have been more powerful than the twitter mob? What alternative are you suggesting, that we just roll over and let these kinds of assholes ruin lives with impunity? "Power never takes a back step only in the face of more power."

We don't need to let either mob kick anyone off from the internet.

What would you do if Kiwifarms came after you?

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#969

Post by Sohcahtoa82 »

logicalmonster wrote: post #967
Sohcahtoa82 wrote: post #965

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But one big reason that I think taking down a website like this is very morally questionable without a court order is that there's no way for the public to know what really happened. Was Kiwifarms the site engaging in bad behavior, or were a few individual users there guilty of crimes? Kiwi Farms exists solely to serve as a breeding ground for harassers. This is not a case of some bad actors on the forum and mods/a…

> Kiwi Farms exists solely to serve as a breeding ground for harassers. > Organizing harm against others is essentially the mission statement for Kiwi Farms. How are you such an informed expert in Kiwifarm's culture and mission statement? Your opinion may or may not reflect reality, but you don't sound the slightest bit objective about this at all. And given all of the censoring and deplatforming that has been done i…

You're commenting as if your ignorance on what Kiwi Farms is gives you some sort of moral high ground.

As much as I hate to say "Do your research"...well...do some research.

Start at the Wikipedia page (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiwi_Farms). Check the sources for the article and make an actual informed decision rather than just acting like it's impossible to know and then acting like such a position is somehow virtuous.

Kiwi Farms started as a forum created for the purpose of trolling and harassing the creator of a webcomic and escalated from there. This is easily verifiable information.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#970

Post by DFHippie »

amadeuspagel wrote: post #179
DFHippie wrote: post #131

This, I think, is a useful perspective for all those here talking about free speech: https://slate.com/technology/2022/09/kiwi-farms-cloudlfare-a... The point is that if you're using your speech to silence people, not by disproving their arguments but through terror and the destruction of their reputation and social network, when you silence people by lying about them, your speech is a threat to free speech. By prote…

"Using your speech to silence people" is very vague, "the destruction of their reputation and social network" and "lying about them" could refer to any case of cancel culture. These things are bad of course, bad for freedom of speech in a broad millian sense[1], but they are way too vague for cloudflare to ban any forum that has speech like this (which is any forum I'm aware of, including HN). [1]: https://en.wikisou…

The point isn't to prescribe behavior for cloudflare. The point is to show that "no censorship" doesn't provide a simple rule to follow in all cases. Speech itself can be censorship. In this case an entity like cloudflare needs to evaluate the particulars of the case, not apply a general rule.

This is setting aside the mechanism of the censorship -- removing DDOS protection versus a harassment campaign -- the social or other merit or the speech censored, etc.

Kiwi Farms is a particular clear case to illustrate this point.

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