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Trudeau Invokes Emergencies Act

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Re: Trudeau Invokes Emergencies Act

#961
post #749

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems like these protests ought to be solvable by the police, using normal police powers, without resorting to emergency measures or doing things like freezing accounts and suspending truckers' licenses. Why not do the obvious thing: send the police in to arrest people who won't leave. Tow their trucks. That worked at the border the other day -- why wouldn't it work in Ottawa too? It's not like the Canadian police…

The Ottawa police haven't been able to get any towing companies to come in and tow away any of the heavy trucks. From the articles I've read, the trucks at the border crossing were lighter pickup trucks, which can be towed away with regular tow trucks. Some of the reasons listed as to the reluctance of towing companies to participate: - the heavy truck towing companies get much of their business from the truck indust…

In this case wouldn't it be fairly straightforward to just have the city buy a tow truck, paint without branding and have a worker of the city just tow? I mean I'd suggest having any department do this.

There must be day to day things disrupted enough that someone's job has been disrupted with this all going on that can be reallocated to this.

Re: Trudeau Invokes Emergencies Act

#962
post #665

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Freedom of speech ends IMO when people can't sleep or enjoy the city they live in for a very extended time b/c of the 24/7 honking. I am all for demonstrating, but I think it is a little ridiculous what they are doing.

I think it's worth looking for a common ground that accommodates free speech and sleeping? My personal opinion: your threshold to kill free speech is way, WAY too low.

I don't think you understand the concept of free speech. It allows you the right to express your opinion without fear of government oppression. It does not allow you to yell your opinion through a megaphone, in front of my house, at all hours of day and night.

Re: Trudeau Invokes Emergencies Act

#963
post #24

Headline on the front page of BBC News right now: "Trudeau vows to freeze anti-mandate protesters' bank accounts" https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-60383385 This feels downright dystopian, especially if the move away from cash and towards centrally-controlled electronic payment systems is anywhere near as widespread in Canada as elsewhere.

This is the real danger of the administrative state. Arresting you requires actual police officers to go out and physically do the act of arresting you. The bureaucratic state can freeze your bank account, revoke your license, and shut down your life, all remotely. And now they've set precedent for future protests. I don't know how anyone who considers themselves a liberal or Leftist can support this.

This isn't some person's bank account. These are foreign-funded terrorists.

https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/anonymous-donations-to-convoy-as-...

Assuming both police force (as many minorities have experienced) and administrative force can be abused, is one worse for society or more susceptible to abuse?

Re: Trudeau Invokes Emergencies Act

#964

Why are so many Americans obsessed about Canadian politics all of a sudden? The comments here are mostly non-Canadian, and are not representative of the current general sentiment in Canada. While invocation of the Emergencies Act is always concerning, it's pretty clearly warranted here. There's always chance for abuse, but Trudeau's minority government is on thin ice and if they cross any lines they're as good as gon…

>Why are so many Americans obsessed about Canadian politics all of a sudden? The comments here are mostly non-Canadian, and are not representative of the current general sentiment in Canada. Canadian here. Americans are concerned about Canadian democracy falling. 43 out of 50 states have no mandates; the remaining 7 are clear political lines. Many other countries in the world never had restrictions. Many who did have…

Your same pollster:

https://mobile.twitter.com/AngusReid/status/1493113691704725...

> 22% of respondents think the protesters should continue

Sure doesn't seem like 50-75%?

Of CPC voters, they're split on support of protests.

If you think a peaceful protest involves blocking access to ambulances and hospitals, defacing statues with swastikas, and honking very loud horns non-stop for weeks, then I don't think it's possible to have an amicable conversation.

Re: Trudeau Invokes Emergencies Act

#965

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>None of this is a surprise to anyone who has been watching. I could characterize it in a number of ways, but there is nobody left to persuade. Not even a planck length of surprise to anyone. >Given some obvious inevatabilities that flow downstream of this, what's the smart thing to do as an individual? What a great question. Staying neutral? Join the protests on some side? At least try to understand what's happening…

I don't think your assessment reflects the current attitudes in Canada. With such a polarizing topic, it's easy to fall into a bubble. I think this is true (and fairly normal) for any political in-group--we tend to overestimate our public support. In this case, though, it's really just not there. > Even those on the left are seeing this as way too far. Generally, people are [sympathetic]( https://globalnews.ca/news/8…

>I don't think your assessment reflects the current attitudes in Canada. With such a polarizing topic, it's easy to fall into a bubble. I think this is true (and fairly normal) for any political in-group--we tend to overestimate our public support.

I love reading /r/ontario and /r/canada. Obviously cant comment like I do here without getting banned from those subreddits. So their bubble literally sees the truckers as a military occupation that needs to military to violently remove them. That's certainly not a misrepresentation of the general consensus there.

The threads about people killing and driving into protestors got applauds.

So certainly very polarized.

>Generally, people are [sympathetic](https://globalnews.ca/news/8610727/ipsos-poll-trucker-convoy...) to the occupiers, but I wouldn't read too much into that--I'm in the large minority that have "sympathy" for them, but I want them gone as soon as possible.

People generally support what they represent. They look at the global trend of everyone dropping restrictions and they want the same. However, how many Canadians believe these protesters are also racists, sexists, and white supremacists? The smearing is going to have an effect.

>Indeed, rather than this being "way too far," for most Canadians, it's not far enough.

Yes, it seems very polar. Trudeau's in the tanks polls wise because the people who believe the smears think this is a military occupation that needs violence to solve.

>The occupation is in violation of several court injunctions, which makes it illegal.

Like what? That's the thing about peaceful assembly charter right. There's virtually no case law. Which means you can't really injunct against it. You can go after them for bylaw violations that dont involve people. You can ticket a car that is parked illegally. An illegally parked car is not something that makes it a military occupation or even for that matter illegal.

>As for peaceful? I'd disagree--there's been too many incidents of violence for me to characterize it that way, but frankly that's secondary when you're in systematic violation of court orders (without even considering all of the civil violations like parking, noise, public defecation, etc.)

That's the problem with fundamental human rights. I have a right to peacefully protest. Someone else showing up and being violent doesn't remove my right. That's what fuels counter protesters to be violent. City bylaws also have absolutely no bering here.

>Every single province had a pre-existing deconfinement plan. They've been accelerated as the hospital situation continues to improve.

Which will certainly appease many of the protesters to go home. Not all will go home. This legislation that Trudeau just engaged is specifically designed not to stop peaceful protesters. This means Trudeau has to pull the trigger on military eventually.

Re: Trudeau Invokes Emergencies Act

#966

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Why are so many Americans obsessed about Canadian politics all of a sudden? The comments here are mostly non-Canadian, and are not representative of the current general sentiment in Canada. Canadian here. Americans are concerned about Canadian democracy falling. 43 out of 50 states have no mandates; the remaining 7 are clear political lines. Many other countries in the world never had restrictions. Many who did have…

Your same pollster: https://mobile.twitter.com/AngusReid/status/1493113691704725... > 22% of respondents think the protesters should continue Sure doesn't seem like 50-75%? Of CPC voters, they're split on support of protests. If you think a peaceful protest involves blocking access to ambulances and hospitals, defacing statues with swastikas, and honking very loud horns non-stop for weeks, then I don't think it's pos…

>Of CPC voters, they're split on support of protests.

Erin otoole fell spectacularly. Peter mckay not only supports violence against the blockade, he applauds what Trudeau did last night. Piere Polievre seems to be the only reasonable position. We shall see what happens at their leadership.

>If you think a peaceful protest involves blocking access to ambulances and hospitals,

That hasnt happened here at all. That was something months ago that lasted for all of a day before the protesters willingly left. There have been absolutely no blockades like this at all for this. You are misconstruing different protests.

>defacing statues with swastikas

This absolutely hasnt happened. You seem to be consuming some very poor media.

https://www.newsweek.com/canadian-protesters-face-investigat...

But wait lets evaluate.

https://twitter.com/mackaytaggart/status/1487486909131677698

This is the defacement. Some Canadian flags. The protesters themselves came and cleaned this up after it came out.

Your comment that they have been defaced with swasitkas is wrong. So what about the swastikas? Lets be realistic, it was litrally 1 guy with a nazi flag and journalists coincidentally were able to follow him around to get pictures. Hence the media saying 'swastikas were seen'. In the end we actually discovered the truckers are quite diverse and there's absolutely no nazis amongst them. So frankly, if you're seeing swastikas, that's the counter protesters or journalists.

> and honking very loud horns non-stop for weeks, then I don't think it's possible to have an amicable conversation.

The narrative that these sikh and black truckers are white supremacists has fallen internationally. https://notthebee.com/article/come-and-laugh-with-me-at-the-...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWU8Bi8FqQg

This 'racist' narrative is mocked even by the left-wing. Though I concede that honking horns in downtown capital cities should be banned.

Re: Trudeau Invokes Emergencies Act

#967
post #925

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or Canada could just say “you know a trucker without a vaccine really is that big of an issue” Unless Trudeau does that, and god forbid show some humility, this will not end good for Canada.

Why? A tiny minority of truckers is making a huge fuss over really very little - a vaccine being mandated to cross the border. In what way will this "not end good for Canada"? Most likely the blockades will be shut down and everyone else will be able to get on with life.

A fringe minority wouldn't be greeted by people lining highways and overpasses in freezing cold. [1] It wouldn't raise over nine million dollars in crowd funding, twice. [2] At the very least we're talking about a very large minority. It could even be the (previously silent) majority. And the issue is not just border crossing mandates, but all the rules (often absurd and arbitrary) that piled up over the last two years in Canada. Like curfews and prohibitions on shopping in Quebec. The border requirements were just the last straw that catalyzed a particular group of people to express the growing public discontent.

1 - https://youtu.be/pcGsqLRyKo0?t=67

2 - https://givesendgo.com/FreedomConvoy2022

If you can't even describe the situation accurately, why should anyone care about your take on it?

Re: Trudeau Invokes Emergencies Act

#968
“A republic, if you can keep it.” — Dr. Benjamin Franklin, Constitutional Convention, Independence Hall, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, Sept. 17, 1787.

Oh wait, Canada isn’t even a republic, just a monarchy. . .

Just a Federal parliamentary constitutional monarchy.

Maybe it’s nigh time?

Re: Trudeau Invokes Emergencies Act

#969

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You mean CORAF (Charter Of Rights And Freedoms) and not Bill of Rights, eh?

Technically we have both and Canada's constitution is so messy the latter might also be in it.

The CORAF covers federal and provincial governance, while the earlier Bill Of Rights (1960) was only federal. The latter has very limited usefulness today on its own, so has essentially been subsumed by the former. I'm not sure what you mean by the Constitution being "messy" so I cannot comment on that.

Re: Trudeau Invokes Emergencies Act

#970
post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hope you’re just as outraged by the removal of first nations protesters blockading pipelines last year - because those were more peaceful than the trucker stuff and they were crushed with pretty extreme force by the rcmp

Are you as outraged by this as that?

One group is protesting a permanent degradation of their home for the rich to get richer. The other is protesting temporary measures to protect the most vulnerable among us. Yeah, my sympathies are a not exactly even. Either way, invoking the emergencies act is stupid - if it wasn’t needed to arrest and remove pipeline protesters, it’s just theatrics now.
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