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Google removes its head of diversity after 2007 blog post surfaces

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Re: Google removes its head of diversity after 2007 blog post surfaces

#961

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In terms of getting people fired/removed/cancelled for remarks, yes absolutely. That may be a function of social media and the scale of communication in modern times, but either way the sensitivity of the vocal minority has definitely changed even in my relatively short life.

You say yes, but can you explain how it is different? As far as I can tell it's the same as it was a century ago. The only change is the subject matter. Do you think you'd keep your job after saying something anti-Christian in the 1950s? Look at what happened to Sinead O'Connor in the early 90s after she spoke out against child abuse in the Catholic church. Maybe the biggest difference is that now we write when we co…

No I'm not saying the mechanism has changed, mob rule has probably been a thing since humans organised in groups larger than 5, but the scale and level of scrutiny definitely have.

I'm not familiar with the case of celebrities or Sinead O'Connor specifically, but no celebrity in my lifetime before the advent of this new wave of cancel culture has been completely cancelled the way they are today (even Michael Jackson, who had serious allegations of child molestation, had an O2 concert scheduled shortly before his death).

Even for the average person, if you lost your job due to anti-mob comments in the 50s that didn't bar you from ever finding a job again (which is the case for some today), and this is without even touching on the way some people have had their entire twitter history crawled and pulled apart from a time when they were generally very different people.

As I said, this is probably a function of social media in the modern era more than anything else.

Re: Google removes its head of diversity after 2007 blog post surfaces

#962
That blog post is disgusting, and 2007 was not such a long time ago. There is no way one can be:

- the head of diversity, i.e. THE LEADER pushing for justice and equality for minority groups,

- while having an anti-Semitic inner-self, i.e. secretly advocating for the discrimination of a minority group.

Re: Google removes its head of diversity after 2007 blog post surfaces

#964

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. I'm a Jew (by heritage, though not by belief). I oppose Israel's actions WRT Palestine and related issues. The Israeli government seems to have that "insatiable appetite for war", but that's a pretty small subset of all Jews. Even the entire Israeli population is a small subset of all Jews.

> I'm a Jew (by heritage, though not by belief) I never understood that concept. The idea that Judaism is transmitted from lineage is itself only a belief of Judaism. If you don't believe in Judaism there is no reason to believe in this particular fiction. This specific feature is obviously a hack on the reproductivity of the meme. There is no Judaism gene, it's not transmittable, it's not an ethnicity.

> I never understood that concept.

No problem! It certainly doesn't make sense if one approaches it from a Western Christian mindset. I am not trying to imply that is how you are approaching it, rather I mention this because Judaism often gets compared to Christianity, but I think they are quite different.

It is better to think of Judaism as a tribe. Membership to this tribe is mainly given under two conditions: through matrilineal descent or through religious conversion. Some subgroups within the tribe have different membership conditions like recognizing patrilineal descent, others may not recognize conversions done by other subgroups.

Re: Google removes its head of diversity after 2007 blog post surfaces

#965
post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> for example Lebanon is younger than Israel What people usually find particularly offensive is the de-facto annexation and settlement of territories that exceed the UN resolution that created the State of Israel, along with the complete imbalance in both military power and casualties of both sides. It's not just ethnic/sectarian conflict. In many aspects, it would qualify as genocide.

Well, Syria is just across the border with genocide (not just as rhetorical device) very much ongoing. Military imbalance a plenty. Anyone up for dissolving it yet? Hell, even outright Nazism wasn't deemed a reason enough to dissolve Germany (although at some point it was seriously considered).

I don't think anyone is advocating for the dissolution of Israel. While the Syrian government is doing appalling things to its own people, I don't think we want to use "We're better than Syria" as the bar here.

The Israeli government and its people need to take a hard look at what it is doing, whether they'd like to be subjected to it by a foreign military power, and how they'd react against it. If they wouldn't like it, and if they would react violently against it, then I believe we'd have a lesson to learn and understand what Palestinians are experiencing and why a more peaceful solution would be a more constructive way to move forward. Some of the pain points can be immediately addressed.

And Germany was, in fact, dissolved into two smaller and very different countries for a long, long time after WWII. Their own wounds and the memory of the horrors they perpetrated, and the lesson that very normal people can do unimaginable evil is a tough one to learn, but one we must learn nevertheless if we decide to be better than our ancestors.

Re: Google removes its head of diversity after 2007 blog post surfaces

#966

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that categories are often fuzzy does not make them useless as a general heuristic for finding people who are more likely to share similar experiences with each other. Almost every kind of categorization system shares the problems you talk about: people can call themselves "programmers" for a variety of different reasons, even though they're working in wildly different environments and might be totally unsuit…

You are trying to rationalize the usage of “black” and “white” while simultaneously seeming to agree with my point. I would say this to you: if you believe a diverse set of skills, experience and personality are important (I believe they can be) then use categories for that. Skills categories are judged from education and practical work tests. Experience is judged from CV and references from earlier employments. Pers…

Multiple issues:

- First, this is not an either/or situation. You can assess personality, skills, and experience in traditional ways, while simultaneously understanding that having a diverse collection of genders, races, ages, disabilities, etc on a team is often a competitive strength. You don't have to throw away people's CVs to do any of this.

There's an assumption that I see sometimes that caring about diversity during hiring necessarily means ignoring everything else, and that's just not what people like me are saying to do at all.

- Second, the role of a head of diversity should go way beyond simple hiring decisions, it can also mean trying to make a more welcoming environment that accommodates diverse workforces after they're hired, it can mean trying to explain why certain demographic outcomes and trends exist in hiring, and trying to figure out on a high level if there are areas where Google is biasing its hiring process or culture to be less diverse.

It should be kind of obvious, but Kamau wasn't just sorting applications based on skin color -- you wouldn't need multiple people and a "head" to do that. A diversity initiative is supposed to look at the entire company, identify subtle problems in multiple areas/departments, and come up with creative solutions to those problems.

- Third, I think you're discounting life experience in general as a contributing factor towards how people make decisions. It's not "you're brownish, that's nice." It's "Black people want to use our products, is there someone in the room who's going to notice if our AI mislabels them in photos?" It's "we want our UI to be usable by blind people, it would be nice if we had anyone in our office that can identify certain pitfalls." It's "we're designing a social network feature that will accidentally make doxing much easier, what are the odds someone who's LGBT+ in our office will raise their hand and point out how dangerous this is for their community?"

Those aren't theoretical concerns, they're issues that companies like Google care a lot about for very practical reasons. So it's a big jump to act like political diversity, age, life experiences don't impact how products get made. Understanding diversity means both acknowledging that these communities are fuzzy and that not everyone in them is identical, and also acknowledging that on net people in these communities have experiences and perspectives that can be valuable to incorporate into decision making processes.

- Fourth, you're missing that many diversity initiatives in companies don't exist in a vacuum. Google has a diversity initiative because it has problems with diversity, because there are unreasonable biases in its hiring processes and recruitment strategies against older, POC, and other minority applicants. Diversity initiatives in companies like this don't just randomly appear out of nowhere. They're not trying to get rid of good hiring practices, they're a response to existing flaws in the hiring process.

It's all well and good to argue that hiring processes should be egalitarian and that diversity will naturally arise if we ignore the categories. But the current outcomes aren't egalitarian, and ignoring the categories didn't lead to natural diversity. Argue if you want that the kind of diversity I'm talking about is irrelevant to quality, but doing so really only reinforces that the lack of diversity across the tech industry is abnormal and it's worth having teams inside of companies who try to figure out why their hiring outcomes seem to be biased in certain directions.

Re: Google removes its head of diversity after 2007 blog post surfaces

#967

Somewhat tangential, but who is the right kind of person for a diversity job? What does a job well done look like? Changes in hiring? Changes in company culture? I'm skeptical of roles with a "my job is to care about X" kind of definition. That includes, for example, "customer advocate" and similar, especially someplace as complicated as google. I don't think they can have much success beyond the surface level. EDIT:…

It starts with an acknowledgement that the company has a problem with X. That's actually incredibly hard, because there's nobody in the company willing to say "I'm anti-X". If they did, you'd just fire them and call it a job well done. Instead, you need to realize that the problem with X is that it's no individual's fault, but the cumulative effect of a lot of little things. Each of those little things is easily dism…

Throwaway account here.

Can you explain what this mythic “throb of injustice” is that keeps the white man in power?

What I experience today is:

* government policy that is openly racist against white and asian men (affirmative action)

* Racist “diversity” campaigns today that are veils for “we want less white men but can’t straight up say that.”

* Hate from people of color, since the narrative is my “white male privilege” is the only reason for any success in my life. Every other major contributor to it is sidelined.

I have also still not found someone able to explain why white male leadership is a problem when it well reflects the entry workforce 40 years ago. Current diversity metrics for new grads will feed up management chains in 40 years and so on.

These are tangible policies and sentiment I can point to that directly and overtly discriminate against me because of my identity. Your comment tries to paint a rosy picture of doing so. There is no thought to my economic background, how hard I’ve worked, etc. Just you’re a white privileged man so you deserve less opportunity for leadership positions.

It seems incredibly and overtly racist to me, but I’m open to changing my mind.

Re: Google removes its head of diversity after 2007 blog post surfaces

#968
post #914

Being reassigned as opposed to fired is quite the privilege. Everyone in the comments is viewing it as completely different than the Damore fiasco because this racist blog post was written in 2007, but are we forgetting that Antonio Martinez wrote Chaos Monkeys 5 years ago and was fired for it now? [1] What's the difference between: 1) Most women in the Bay Area are soft and weak, cosseted and naïve despite their cla…

You are misrepresenting Kamau Bobb's blog post by cherry-picking a single sentence from it. This is the first paragraph of his post: > If I were a Jew today, my sensibilities would be tormented. I would find it increasingly difficult to reconcile the long cycles of oppression that Jewish people have endured and the insatiable appetite for vengeful violence that Israel, my homeland, has now acquired. This reconciliati…

I'm choosing a specific sentence that has been highlighted as unacceptable and is meant to disgust. I'm sure there is much more to the book Chaos Monkeys than "SF women weak," yet he was fired for that comment within his book, with no care given to context.

Hence the question, why the double standard?

Re: Google removes its head of diversity after 2007 blog post surfaces

#969

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but today it is all about getting scalps, You say "today" as if it's ever been any different. Has it?

I think so, because the sheer amount of material many people have written is larger, the hunt for it is more intense, and the ability to form rapid mobs for two-minute hates is much greater. What will institutions do? https://jakeseliger.com/2020/12/03/dissent-insiders-and-outs...

In context I assumed GP was talking more about the witch-hunt mentality. At scale now, I agree -- witch hunts are overall more accessible and so are undertaken more freely.

Re: Google removes its head of diversity after 2007 blog post surfaces

#970
post #727

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A year later, California would vote to ban same-sex marriage. I won't hold their bigoted views against them, as long as they no longer hold them. If I didn't have that forgiveness, there would be half of the voting population of my state that I'd refuse to talk to.

The notion that people change and grow and sometimes learn from their mistakes and become better people seems to have gone by the wayside in recent years.

I'm curious why this is downvoted. Do people think others shouldn't become better people, or that they should never be forgiven for past transgressions they've learned something from?
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