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Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

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Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#961

Post by theonething »

gonehome wrote: post #462
AuthorizedCust wrote: post #442

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If the fundamentalists are a problem, maybe there’s a problem with the fundamentals? That line would only hold if fundamentalists have correctly identified the fundamentals. I wage they have badly missed it, which is why their theology is so bad. > being a good person or not is largely disconnected from religiousness Being a good person is not the primary point of religion. It is rather a hoped for outcome. Religio…

The thing that scares me about it is when people believe crazy things, they're more likely to believe other crazy things. This means even if most people most of the time are perfectly pleasant, they can get swept up in other stuff that gets out of hand and hurts people. If you can't persuade someone with evidence based reasoning because their position is based on 'faith' or belief in the face of contrary evidence I d…

> The thing that scares me about it is when people believe crazy things, they're more likely to believe other crazy things.

Some examples I can think of are Pol Pot, Stalin and the North Korean Kim dynasty.

My point is there is much rhetoric about religion being a historical scourge of society, but the same people making those assertions conveniently forget that atheistic ideologies had very negative consequences as well.

I'm not arguing based on whataboutism here. I'm saying that blaming religion for the ills of society while exalting atheism is fallacious.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#962

Post by UncleOxidant »

filoeleven wrote: post #855
CedarMills wrote: post #93

As a believer and someone who attends church regularly, this is sad but not unexpected. From my own personal experience - if the church cannot answer questions clearly, their members will look for answers somewhere else. A lot of churches unfortunately are so elementary in their teaching or turn to "feel good preaching" (see Elevation Church). The longterm effect is that a person ends up being tired of getting the sa…

The American evangelical movement is particularly rabid, and subscribes overwhelmingly to Christian nationalism. It is entirely too mixed into politics, and is trying to create a theocratic state where “everyone must live like Christians (for my definition of Christian).” One of the high points for me regarding religion in the past couple years was finding The Holy Post podcast. One host is Phil Vischer, AKA Bob the…

Hah, never thought I'd see the Holy Post show up in an HN comment. Fun podcast. I think what they're doing is important - exposing hypocrisy and nationalism in the American Evangelical church while pointing to a more charitable form of Christianity.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#963

Post by unpolloloco »

CedarMills wrote: post #93

As a believer and someone who attends church regularly, this is sad but not unexpected. From my own personal experience - if the church cannot answer questions clearly, their members will look for answers somewhere else. A lot of churches unfortunately are so elementary in their teaching or turn to "feel good preaching" (see Elevation Church). The longterm effect is that a person ends up being tired of getting the sa…

I'd guess you're a Gen X from your comment? I'd claim that, for the younger generations (middle millennials and younger), that the very claim that the church has all the answers is the problem itself. They deal in relatives and uncertainty as a general rule and the very assertion that one person (or one group of people) has all the answers is laughable. They appreciate humility and acknowledged uncertainty more than clear answers.

I'd posit that these generations are primarily looking for acceptance, not answers. And they're not getting that acceptance, so they leave. Which was my experience - I started questioning teachings (directly based on my reading of scripture) and had leaders shut down on me entirely and refuse to talk further instead of engaging because it didn't fit in the prescribed "answer" - and this was in a fairly "open-minded" church. I'd come back tomorrow if I could find a church that (most importantly) actually accepted me for me and (secondly) would actually engage in tough topics instead of just giving me hollow "answers" that didn't answer the question (and often conflicted directly with scripture!). I guess what I'm looking for is a church that actually practiced grace and acceptance, answers be damned. That's what Jesus did (see hanging out with tax collectors and prostitutes and preaching a message of love for everyone). Why can't the church do it too?

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#964

Post by constGard »

krapp wrote: post #724
constGard wrote: post #717

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In all fairness, this same rhetorical technique was commonly used in the faith that I was raised in. We were often taught that one could violate the Jewish/Christian commandment to "have no other gods before me" by placing more importance on material goods or hobbies (your car, your boat, sports, etc.) than worshiping God.

Judaism was a monotheistic religion surrounded by polytheists, their concern was maintaining their cultural integrity and identity. Other commandments (though shalt not covet, etc) are concerned with materialism and greed. "Though Shalt Have No Other Gods Before Me" is pretty clearly about precisely what it says on the tin.

Of course; I'm just pointing out that the conflation has both precedent and cultural roots.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#965

Post by andagainagain »

jimbokun wrote: post #893
rmah wrote: post #687

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In that quote, Wallace is just morphing, conflating, and fudging the definition of the word "worship". He says people "worship" (with a variety of subtly different meanings) a variety of things and then, implies that because we can use the same word, "worship", to describe those activities, they are equivalent. I despise this rhetorical technique. I find it both insulting, intellectually dishonest and useless.

And he makes his point very clearly and saliently and powerfully, and you know exactly what he means. It's nowhere near as insulting, intellectually dishonest, and useless, as pedantic comments like yours.

I will wholly disagree with this point of view. Telling people that their whole category of thought doesn't exist based on your own personal variants of definitions is belittling.

I put in a different comment that this isn't that different in concept from telling homosexuals that they don't exist because we all love our mothers.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#966

Post by 101011 »

ggggtez wrote: post #738
elmomle wrote: post #691

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's pretty clear that that "worship" here refers to where we practice focusing our heart's yearnings, not to a set of religious rites. Synonyms of this meaning of "worship" include "revere" and "venerate".

No. Because he opens his thought with saying that "Atheism" doesn't exist. Atheism isn't a rejection of "yearning" or "reverence". It's a rejection of religion. He's just playing word games, and you are falling for it.

You are very opinionated for what ultimately is a piece from a fiction writer.

Of course he's going to play on words and conflate emotions when waxing about the meaning of life.

I don't understand why so many have to be such a harsh critic. Yeesh.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#967

Post by nnf »

CedarMills wrote: post #184
49531 wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who was raised in a religious home who no longer attends any church I think it's less to do with not answering questions and more to do with a hostile rejection of religion generally. It wasn't until I had children of my own that I realized I needed to distance myself from religion. I know there is a large variety of what is taught from religion to religion and sect to sect but I'd like to steer clear from…

I think it heavily depends on the church and community. One of the reasons we are staying in our current church is because we're open to a wide community (multi-ethnic) with the same core values. Our kids grow up in this community but at the end of the day, it will be their decision if they decide to no longer attend.

I will not presume to know your reasons for staying in your church beyond what you said here, and I respect your position on leaving the choice to your kids on whether they stick with it.

I will say though that in general there are two points I often see missing from this position:

1) At what point in the kids’ lives will it be their decision? Many kids are required to attend church until a certain age or until they are no longer living under their parents’ roof.

2) Why not start by not taking the kids to church until they are old enough to make the decision themselves? Instilling a fear of hell can be difficult to overcome later in life, even after people lose their faith, which isn’t fair to kids who don’t get a say in the matter.

I hope this doesn’t come off as hostile, as I sincerely don’t mean it to be. I do hope more people consider this though when deciding what is best for their kids, both at the beginning of their lives and once they’re grown.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#968

Post by jcone »

So you've been burned by some folks at a church and you're struggling with the hypocrisy of the whole thing? A lot of us hear you, we’re sorry that happened to you, that stinks. Something inside you knows people aren't supposed to treat each other like that.

One thing to consider - the whole reason we have for knowing and understanding the person of Jesus Christ is because of those exact same types of people that hurt you. Jesus called out the leaders of the church in His time for doing all the kinds of things that are driving people like you away. In doing so, He made them so mad, they conspired with their sworn enemies to have Him killed.

"Well, anyway, I could never mindlessly worship someone who's so narcissistic he needs my uninterrupted attention."

Is that what God wants from you though? Repeated chants? Money? Have you considered a God that cares less about what you can do for Him and more about just being with you? Is it possible that someone who designed you knows what's best for your relationship - keeping you close to Him?

"Well, Christians believe in N and I'm !N, so no thanks."

Sure, I get it, we want a God that will love us for who we are - just the way we are. But sometimes we're more selective with our love without even asking the question "Yeah, God should love me, but do I love Him whatever way He is?" Are we willing to change any part of ourselves? The problem here is that if there is an intelligent God, He knows that anything we love more than Him becomes our god. Maybe that isn't the kind of relationship he's after. Maybe he wants our whole heart, not just a part.

And therein lies the issue, we aren't terribly loving to that kind of God, any of us. Most of us mess up constantly, and the most frequent way we do so is by hurting someone else He created and we elevate ourselves. That's the whole point. Look around, we're about 5 minutes from torching this whole thing to the ground. We blew it. And you know what? After all that, just like the day he was nailed to the cross - He forgives us, He still wants to give us a chance to make amends and draw near to Him.

Dear Internet stranger, shut down your IDE for 5 minutes and take some time this Easter to figure this out. Is it possible that God is near? That He wrote Himself into our story and happened to have the name Jesus? That He took the hit and died on a cross and He rose again to make your relationship with Him right? If God loves you, he's not going to drag you somewhere you don't want to go - that wouldn’t be love. Maybe forgiveness and a new start is holding out it's hand, but if it was, would you even be willing to consider it?

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#969

Post by lalaland1125 »

jcone wrote: post #968

So you've been burned by some folks at a church and you're struggling with the hypocrisy of the whole thing? A lot of us hear you, we’re sorry that happened to you, that stinks. Something inside you knows people aren't supposed to treat each other like that. One thing to consider - the whole reason we have for knowing and understanding the person of Jesus Christ is because of those exact same types of people that hur…

I'm not sure if an emotion based evangelical essay is that effective on this particular platform.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#970

Post by notsureaboutpg »

lalaland1125 wrote: post #886
brundolf wrote: post #478

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was in the exact same place as you about 10 years ago. A key thing for me (I'm still not religious, though I'm religion-adjacent in some ways) was seeing that religion - despite what some would tell you - is at its best when it's not made to be about material truths at all. Its truths, really, are truths about the human condition and how best to live it out. In this sense, even as someone who doesn't believe in met…

The problem is that their teachings also contain a lot of falsehoods. For example, the majority of churches in the US teach that gay sex will cause a person to be tortured for eternity in hell. That teaching is probably wrong and causes so much damage to so many people.

Totally different tangent, but I've been thinking differently since COVID and all.

Gay sex is a huge factor for the spread of STDs and HIV for obvious reasons anal penetrative sex is practiced more commonly by gay people and is far more likely to spread STDs and HIV.

That's also damaging to society. The same way not wearing a mask and spreading COVID is damaging to society.

We've been telling people don't travel, stay home, don't visit your relatives in the hospital, don't go to school, limit human interaction, etc. to control COVID.

Isn't all that far more damaging to people than COVID? If not, then isn't a negative social view of gay (and all adulterous) sex worth limiting the spread of STDs/HIV?

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