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Richard M. Stallman resigns

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Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#961

Post by bandrami »

concordDance wrote: post #960
kelnos wrote: post #478

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can we please stop excusing bad behavior with some form of "oh because autism"? It's an insult to the many, many neuro-atypical people who don't say shitty, stupid things online, who don't act creepy around women, who don't have a sign on their MIT office that says "Knight for Justice (Also: Hot Ladies)", who don't have a gross mattress in their office where they encourage people to lie topless, who don't try to pres…

> We don't have to tolerate people who make women feel unsafe and unwelcome in our (or any) industry. A lot of people (mostly men) hugely overestimate just how fragile and vulnerable women are. The semi-autistic are a lot more likely to be made unwelcome than women.

And yet, women have been driven out of CSAIL for years by RMS's (and others') behavior (I know several, personally). And he's only being driven out now.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#964

Post by sobani »

reuven wrote: post #956
throwawaylolx wrote: post #930

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>how could someone claim any moral or leadership authority when he called for protests and a letter-writing campaign on a subject he didn't know about first hand? ... >You want to defend Epstein in your own personal life? Go for it; you won't have many friends or colleagues afterwards, but that's up to you. But if you do it as the public face of a well-known activist organization? You can't possibly stick around ther…

I did write: > To defend Epstein, or the people who were associated with him, is unacceptable. Sorry, but Epstein's crimes, and the horrible things he did to a lot of people, and the growing web of powerful people involved with these crimes, are not something to have trivial fights over. Maybe RMS was just defending Minsky's participation in Epstein's sex trafficking scheme. That's bad enough to me.

> Minsky's participation in Epstein's sex trafficking scheme.

source please? All I know is that a girl offered herself to Minsky and that he rejected her.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#965

Post by sascha_sl »

lame88 wrote: post #596
dexen wrote: post #447

Just as much as RMS was right[1], ESR was right[2]. The "cancel culture" is harming the free software movement by practicing human version of Microsoft's EEE[3]. The cancel culture enters the community, establishes interests groups, and starts knocking down prominent contributors. The demands are backed by angry crowds on social media rather than by contributions. It's time for us to defend each other, and to hold co…

Using the term SJW alone destroys the credibility of any substantial claim using it. If you really want to persuade people, find a term that isn’t mainly employed as incendiary jargon of far-right ideology to categorically dismiss anyone left of their viewpoint.

(hint for would-be repliers: postmodern neomarxist isn't either)

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#966

Post by dang »

favorited wrote: post #55
dang wrote: post #7

The previous thread was https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20989696 .

It's good context, but that one was focused on his MIT resignation, & predates his resignation from the FSF.

When there is significant new information in a major ongoing story, standard practice is to have a new thread about the latest development, and let the earlier thread fall off the front page.

https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#967

Post by flippinburgers »

It is unfortunate. I hope that what Stallman brought to the world due to his personality is not overshadowed by this. I think that the people who, for lack of a better term, are frothing at the mouth with the opportunity to attack him don't have a true understanding of the degree to which free software has changed the world, powering companies and huge parts of the economy. It baffles me. Maybe they just don't care. I'm not sure, but I feel that he is being wildly misrepresented.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#968

Post by mtrower »

sgentle wrote: post #218
aazaa wrote: post #14

I've seen some online cheering Stallman's resignation from MIT. I suspect they'll also be cheering about this resignation as well. But this is nothing to cheer about. Regardless of what low regard the man might be held as a person, he's being persecuted for having expressing ideas, demanding proof of claims, advocating for objective standards, and asking questions. These are all hallmarks of scientific inquiry. It se…

I'm not cheering. I would much rather live in a universe where Stallman didn't "I'm just saying" himself out of his own organisation. I don't even like him that much, but I think he represented an important voice in software. It's not good that he's out, but I think it is right. I am dumbfounded anew every time I see a smart and analytical person twist themselves around to the point that they become too smart to beli…

RSM did not say 1 or 2. There are other people in that thread besides him... all names have been redacted except his.

He did say 3.

He did say 4, but (perhaps I misunderstand?) you seem to have colored it. Epstein as a coercer remains a factor; the assertion is that this cannot be morally on Minsky if one assumes he didn't know about it.

4.2 He also argues that, morally speaking, rape is rape, and not-rape is not-rape, irrespective of location and whether a girl was 17 or 18. This is also not part of his primary argument; it was a response to someone else (a student, I've heard?) bringing these exact legal details to the table.

5. The thing is, depending on whether you say that "Minsky is accused of assaulting one of Epstein's victims", and "Minsky is accused of having sex with a 17-year old victim of Epstein's sex trafficking", or even some other title besides, people are going to have different reactions. Some people might have the same reaction to both, but other people might envision something different when presented with the former title, than when presented with the latter. RMS argues for a more specific title, arguing that the original is prone to accusation inflation.

> How far must our credulity stretch to believe that Minsky foresaw most of modern AI, only to fall for "hot willing 17-year-olds in your area"?

Well, I imagine the figurative advertisement was probably more like "hot willing 18-year-olds in your area", possibly coupled with an exchange of money.

I'm not saying you don't have any points. I can follow most of your reasoning. But maybe you might adjust your 1-5, then re-evaluate your position from there? Is it possible that you don't arrive at an identical conclusion?

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#969

Post by mtrower »

collyw wrote: post #958

Where can I see a link to what he actually said? As usual everyone is giving their own interpretation of his controversial remarks with their own spin.

https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/6405929/091320191...

This is an excerpt from the CSAIL mailing list archive, so start at the bottom and work your way up. All names aside from RMS have been redacted.

Some people are also bringing up this post from April, so here is that text: https://stallman.org/archives/2019-jan-apr.html#25_April_201...

But the main content is the mailing list.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#970

Post by concordDance »

X6S1x6Okd1st wrote: post #830
kstenerud wrote: post #509

It's unfortunate that scarlet letter offences are still alive and well in today's culture. Normally, when someone engages in behavior seen as offensive, the procedure is to pressure the person to apologize and mend his ways, and only get rid of him if he refuses to do so. But when a "scarlet letter" offence is involved, we jump straight to the punishment phase, removing the person outright with no judicial process. T…

Do you not think people have tried to get RMS to stop talking about how injust statory rape is, or that he should probably stop talking about how child porn is ok? This isn't a one off and he's one of the least likely people to mend his ways.

The censorship of ideas the majority dislikes is pretty repulsive.

This is one of the reasons it took so long for homosexuality to become accepted.

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