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8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

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Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

#961

Post by vgetr »

tepidandroid wrote: post #139

My opinion is that freedom of speech is a fine ideal to strive for, but it relies on having a stable society with some minimum level of education (moral and philosophical too, not just the technical kind). It requires people who are able to fully parse the implications of what they are hearing to make sound and rational judgements on the rejection of an idea or the embrace of it. It creates a moral duty for the peopl…

I think there’s a grain of truth to this. However, I would ask a counter-question: by what standard do you define “morality”? Or “hate-speech”? Or “extremism”? What gives one person the right to define it and another to be held accountable to it?

Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

#962

Post by buildzr »

a254613e wrote: post #878
buildzr wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We wouldn't tolerate the existence of an Islamist site that glorified and helped perpetrate mass incidents of terror against our society. Speak for yourself, I would. I've downloaded and distributed ISIS propaganda videos before out of sheer intrigue. Just because someone says something you don't like doesn't mean you should ban it. Of course, this will be downvoted to hell because this is a hot topic at the moment…

> Speak for yourself, I would. I've downloaded and distributed ISIS propaganda videos before out of sheer intrigue. It will be downvoted because it's INSANE, not because it's a hot topic. ISIS propaganda isn't banned for the fun of it or because "too near emotions influencing policies", it's banned for the effect that it casuses, the intention it has, and the attorcities it shows. There's a difference between support…

Well, let's be clear, I simply downloaded a torrent and let it seed for a while.

You seem strongly opinionated on this one though, I'm curious, what do you think of Tor or BitTorrent? Should such services be banned as they aid in the distribution of this type of thing too? If you're running a Tor middle node you're part of the distribution of not just all sorts of propaganda like this, but far, far worse things.

Do you think banning these services, reigning in control of information to "help prevent radicalization" in a China-esque way would be a good decision? In my view this is just part of living in a free society, freedom sometimes costs security.

Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

#963

Post by hanselot »

wozniacki wrote: post #911
wpietri wrote: post #539

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My main issue with discussions on topics like this is a sort of fundamentalism. It's very easy to take a particular right (e.g., speech, property) and defend it absolutely. But rights are inherently social, and must be balanced against other people's rights. For example, I don't think my freedom of speech should trump Cloudflare's or Voxility's right to freedom of association. They should generally be able to decide…

It's very easy to take a particular right (e.g., speech, property) and defend it absolutely. But rights are inherently social, and must be balanced against other people's rights. Would you find it acceptable if we societally agreed to do away with the privacy that surrounds the dispensation of healthcare - all the costly protocols (like Sarbanes-Oxley compliance and others), the costly mandated use of privacy complia…

Technically, extending on that, all data for any/everything should be open sourced. In the case of driverless vehicles, the app developed with an inferior dataset will have a lower safety score, and thereby a higher number of casualties. In theory we can say that there is a minimum number of casualties involved with getting into the market, especially if you are a new player. The buy-in is a number of human (and other) lives.

Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

#964

Post by joepie91_ »

naasking wrote: post #945
slg wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The concept of freedom of speech falls apart if universally reprehensible speech is allowed to be publicaly espoused without being firmly challenged. Forums like 8chan and 4chan effectively incubate hate speech by providing a safe space for anonymized, like-minded individuals to congregate, espouse their basest thoughts and feelings and receive gratification for it -all without challenge. Moderate people are repulse…

> These boards do more than allow this hate to fester. They allow hate to grow as they become a recruiting ground that can radicalize people who never would have fallen into this mindset without these boards. This is a common narrative, but it depends on an empirical question of whether hate spreads online and whether this motivates action. Fortunately, studies suggest that online talk does not motivate action: https…

I haven't read the full paper yet, but the 'Executive summary' section seems quite explicit that the findings relate to the internet specifically; that is, does "the internet" increase radicalization as opposed to other non-internet venues?

But that isn't the point you're replying to; the point you're replying to is about "these boards" (ie. these venues), and makes no mention of their internet-ness being a factor.

The report, crucially, does therefore not seem to contradict the post you're replying to, as that post is about radicalization in mixed-topic venues in general; this one just happens to be on the internet.

Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

#965

Post by chessturk »

rswail wrote: post #913
chessturk wrote: post #790

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Democracy has been broken since the rise of technology and mass media. I'm sorry, when was everyone equally franchised? Between Jim Crow, Women's Sufferage, and Civil Rights you've got what? The mid 60s to mid 80s as the heyday of American Democracy? Having Nixon smack in the middle of that doesn't really help the arguement. If we define democracy as universal suffrage and equal vote weight, democracy has been more…

If deomcracy been broken since the rise of technology and mass media, then I assume we're talking about Hearst and his stoking of propaganda during the Spanish-US war of 1898? Or perhaps you're referring to British propaganda during the Boer War? Thinking that the advent of Facebook has radically changed the use of media for propaganda purposes is misguided. It may allow for more direct propaganda and greater ability…

If 1898 Democracy is functioning Democracy to you, we're taking past each other.

Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

#966

Post by thatguyagain »

ohithereyou wrote: post #933
stelonix wrote: post #580

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I respectfully and vehemently disagree. Hate speech has been proven to be able to convince people by virtue of appealing to their emotions rather than their intellect . It does not make sense to have a society based around human rights, with a point of view where stealing, murdering or otherwise deceiving people is wrong, while at the same time allowing speech which can subvert that same democracy. It's simply not sm…

>Hate speech has been proven to be able to convince people by virtue of appealing to their emotions rather than their intellect. Replace hate speech with advertising and it reads the same.

Yes, but where's the connection between advertisement and a school shooting for example?

Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

#967

Post by naasking »

joepie91_ wrote: post #964
naasking wrote: post #945

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> These boards do more than allow this hate to fester. They allow hate to grow as they become a recruiting ground that can radicalize people who never would have fallen into this mindset without these boards. This is a common narrative, but it depends on an empirical question of whether hate spreads online and whether this motivates action. Fortunately, studies suggest that online talk does not motivate action: https…

I haven't read the full paper yet, but the 'Executive summary' section seems quite explicit that the findings relate to the internet specifically; that is, does "the internet" increase radicalization as opposed to other non-internet venues? But that isn't the point you're replying to; the point you're replying to is about "these boards" (ie. these venues), and makes no mention of their internet-ness being a factor. T…

What is a "mixed topic venue", precisely, that you would distinguish it from the internet or other media? Frankly, the internet is the ultimate mixed topic venue IMO.

Furthermore, it seems pretty clear that the OP was specifically referring to online boards, and this forms the context of pretty much this entire thread and every discussion of this topic here and elsewhere about the spread of hate online.

Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

#968

Post by alfromspace »

greglindahl wrote: post #632
irrational wrote: post #468

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Popper's tolerance criteria, by contrast, seems clearcut What is that criteria? Because I can easily see people disagreeing on what is and is not intolerant. Would you agree that saying that a baker in Colorado must make a cake for a gay wedding is intolerant of the baker's belief? Because I'm certain a sizeable proportion of the US population would agree that it is intolerant.

A majority of the US population was tolerant of refusing service to N——--—— when it became illegal. Put another way, it’s rare that the rights of minorities are established by majority vote, even if these rights are owed by the Constitution.

That's the crux of the whole problem. The government passed unpopular policies and tried to morally "correct" its people from the top down. It seems most people gradually caught on and normalized those changes, but it isn't surprising to me at all that some/many didn't. I'm wholly on the side of civil rights, but lately I wonder about whether the experiment of using the federal government to try to bring together a big landmass full of people who too often really despise each other along ideological and/or ethnic lines is failing.

Here we are talking about curtailing free speech because the majority can sometimes be wrong and evil, which sounds fair, but that raises the question for me of whether constantly doing things that most people don't want in the name of social progress will create a stable society. I wish I was wrong, but I think not.

Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

#969

Post by slothtrop »

tepidandroid wrote: post #139

My opinion is that freedom of speech is a fine ideal to strive for, but it relies on having a stable society with some minimum level of education (moral and philosophical too, not just the technical kind). It requires people who are able to fully parse the implications of what they are hearing to make sound and rational judgements on the rejection of an idea or the embrace of it. It creates a moral duty for the peopl…

> Forums like 8chan and 4chan effectively incubate hate speech by providing a safe space

The simplest view is that these safe spaces mostly exist because some larger platforms have been turned into safe spaces. However, even on larger platforms, these types form insular groups that are effectively walled gardens within a larger ecosystem (see T_D). The mode of operation appears to be to rally behind safe spaces, then brigade larger platforms when something catches their attention. No real discussion, just bombarding text.

It's exceedingly difficult to have honest discussion with those of opposing views because people reward themselves with safe spaces and tend to expect them. Ideally, we could rely on rational discourse to assuage the extremism issue and inoculate. If we shout them down in a given arena, they'll scurry away but never disappear.

As I see it, it's a problem of scale. On smaller vbulletin forums you'll more likely see heated, but honest, debate there without any brigades nor bans (depending on modship). A rainbow of opinions. With platforms as large as reddit, censorship is holding all out shit shows at bay.

Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

#970

Post by s_y_n_t_a_x »

slothtrop wrote: post #969
tepidandroid wrote: post #139

My opinion is that freedom of speech is a fine ideal to strive for, but it relies on having a stable society with some minimum level of education (moral and philosophical too, not just the technical kind). It requires people who are able to fully parse the implications of what they are hearing to make sound and rational judgements on the rejection of an idea or the embrace of it. It creates a moral duty for the peopl…

> Forums like 8chan and 4chan effectively incubate hate speech by providing a safe space The simplest view is that these safe spaces mostly exist because some larger platforms have been turned into safe spaces. However, even on larger platforms, these types form insular groups that are effectively walled gardens within a larger ecosystem (see T_D). The mode of operation appears to be to rally behind safe spaces, then…

Conservatives have few places to gather. T_D grew large because a displaced group of people finally had a commonly known enough place to gather. T_D was constantly brigaded by other subreddits. Yes T_D members may comment in other subs, but that's there right as users of the site. To my knowledge there was no coordination of all users to brigade.

Liberals have nearly the entire internet as a safe-space. It's nice to have a community with similar views, especially political as people are always just looking for confirmation bias, not really willing to debate, so it's too toxic to try all the time.

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