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James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

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Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#961

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe a sign of issues in the field is that people hiring undervalue interpersonal skills/relationships and what it means to be "capable," which I do think is a flaw in Damore's original memo.

that was actually a point in his memo. "Women on average show a higher interest in people and men in things ○ We can make software engineering more people-oriented with pair programming and more collaboration. Unfortunately, there may be limits to how people-oriented certain roles at Google can be and we shouldn't deceive ourselves or students into thinking otherwise (some of our programs to get female students into…

> We can make software engineering more people-oriented with pair programming and more collaboration

This is different than my point. I'm saying that software engineering IS people-oriented as it exists and that it's simply undervalued.

> Unfortunately, there may be limits to how people-oriented certain roles at Google can be

What roles at Google shouldn't be people-oriented? This just strikes me as an absurd thing to say.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#962
post #833

Earlier quoted context omitted.

why do you think that he is necessarily wrong. After I read his memo, I would say it is debatable, not wrong. In fact you're attitude is a very clear sign of the silence culture being pushed.

Ehh...I was replying to a post that didn't consider the fact that he might actually be wrong, come to terms with his wrongness, and admit it and move on. Whether or not he's wrong is perhaps an unanswered question -- I don't really know enough about the memo to say one way or the other -- but he should consider that what he did was wrong.

Well nobody on the other side did anything close to "considering that what they did was wrong".

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#963

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, he didn't say that. He speaks about the `distribution of preferences and abilities`. Going from a distribution to state that `women are worse then men at engineering` is a false narrative and COMPLETELY different. You probably didn't realize that because you already made your own politically-correct version of the truth on that subject, and refuse any discussion about those topics. For example, what he said doesn…

I think he is somewhat confused or insincere about the maths here. Given this `distribution of preferences and abilities` he said that women on average were lower, but if you only hire people above a certain threshold, there is no difference in the people you hire. This is not true. Unless the `distribution` is binary "has ability / does not have ability", the people coming from the "higher average" distribution will…

You assume that "the lower average" group will apply as much (i.e. lower ability people will apply too) as the "higher average" group.

I could now point "confused or insincere" right back at you ...

But at least this whole debate is wonderful example why you should not assume bad faith in others.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#964
post #636

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My understanding is that this is a very inaccurate portrayal of what happened, and that makes me doubt that you gave the memo a fair chance. He published an internal memo, but not necessarily a "secret" one. Someone else published it externally -- not him -- and he only went on a media "crusade" after being very publicly fired.

Yes, I gave the memo a chance. But you're right, though, now that I'm reflecting, my portrayal of him was too harsh. After all, the man did get fired for writing a letter. THAT is ridiculous and I hope he wins the suit just for that. The whole thing is embarrassing, though. I mean, what was he complaining about? He worked at Google, which is like, the top of the heap for programming jobs. I didn't understand why he w…

> But you're right, though, now that I'm reflecting, my portrayal of him was too harsh. After all, the man did get fired for writing a letter. THAT is ridiculous and I hope he wins the suit just for that.

Thank god at least someone in this mess was capable of reflecting and changing their opinion. Thanks for restoring my faith in humanity.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#965

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because fighting fire with fire seems to be the only tactic successful in these contexts. Its about proving the hypocrisy of practicing discrimination against those you self deem (without any due process) to be discriminatory. Discrimination, like hate only begets more discrimination. As far as the second point, the free markets no longer operate that way, marketing has emerged as a white washing effect for any ill a…

The problem is that you're shooting fire at Google, who isn't the one who originated the lawsuits or threats of lawsuits that lead to Google's policies. If anything they're victims of the previous lawsuits. This may achieve the desired effect of getting them to lobby to get laws changed so that these lawsuits won't be as effective, but it's a morally muddy game. I'm a libertarian who supports Damore in sprirt, but I…

Google is the one shooting fire first by firing him needlessly

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#966

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you're telling me that in Europe, if a male coworker cracks a dongle joke in the presence of female coworker, and if she complains to the HR, then nothing would happen to the male coworker? Or maybe you mean to say that in Europe all men are so sensible that nobody cracks dongle jokes in presence of female coworkers? Or maybe that majority of the European women would not complain to the HR if someone did crack tha…

Here's the European interpretation: It's a fucking dongle joke! Why the hell would anyone feel offended by a fucking dongle joke? Seriously. And yes, we have no trouble saying "fucking" without censoring it. And if there is a "nipple slip" on live TV, we don't make such a big deal out of it. It's a fucking nipple, get over it. So to answer your question: 1. We see no problem in dongle jokes 2. If someone would see a…

> 1. We see no problem in dongle jokes

Who is 'we' here? You think most Americans have a problem with dongle jokes? Or you mean to say that most or all Europeans don't have a problem with dongle jokes.

> 2. If someone would see a problem with it and complain, those complains would be ignored (because we see no problem)

This is when you end up with Uber, where these complaints were ignored and they eventually ended up with Susan Fowler incident.

The company fired the woman who complained because their servers were getting DDoSed.

Look I know what you're saying, it isn't that a day passes by when someone on the Internet, Europeans don't remind Americans (And many Americans remind themselves) that Americans are very prude compared to Europe.

But what you're not doing is understanding the problem here. The problem isn't the 'prude American culture', rather, there is a civil life culture, and then there is a work culture. The complaint feminists have made is that work culture needs to be more welcoming to women.

So the question is 'What constitutes as welcoming work culture?'.

Saying "Hurr hurr, we are Europeans, we don't have problems like that" is just sidestepping the issue.

Are European workplaces completely welcoming to women, as European feminists would like it to be? If not, then how are you dealing with it?

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#967
post #842

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I'm sure Damore claims he was excellent. But claims of excellence do not correlate perfectly with actual excellence. And neither do promotion packets; I'm sure we've all worked with somebody who did better on paper than was justified. So I'd still like to see his code. And talk with some of his coworkers.

You're just mining for something by now. It is clear that you implication that Damore was a sore loser that covered his lack of performance by blaming diversity has no connection to reality. Damore had performance completely satisfactory by Google's standards, and achieved significant praise from his peers, so whatever would be your evaluation of it, he was not in a loser position, had no reason to be sore for anythi…

The guy appears to have lied about a PhD and being a chess master. So it's entirely reasonable for me to be skeptical of his claims in a lawsuit that he was an A+++ top performer. And even if those claims are correct, I still would like to look at his code and hear from his coworkers. He wouldn't be the first person to get promoted beyond his actual accomplishments.

Also, sweeping assertions like "had no reason" assume facts not in evidence. We mainly don't know what happened at Google. Or why he didn't complete his PhD. We have only heard his side of the story, and only part of that.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#968
post #748

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anxiety over close proximity to explosives seems justified. Anxiety over somebody stating ideas you simply disagree with doesn't.

There are disagreeable ideas that nobody has anxiety over though, so it's not just that. But I think you can see that too. If you assume his ideas are correct: 1. His letter becomes well received, my employer changes their hiring policies 2. The current gender ratio was propped by non-gender-neutral hiring practices, without them, that will change back in-line to the base rate 3. My job is in danger Is anxiety over l…

Being anxious about losing your job doesn't justify getting somebody else fired. Specially through vile means such as character assassination.

Edit: Besides, those same arguments apply against the diversity advocates. They openly claim that white men dominate the industry because of sexism, that they don't hold their positions because of merit but because of bias. They're guilty of the same crime they accuse Damore of committing.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#969
post #937

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So your argument goes like this: 1. Damore truthfully specified he's a PhD student 2. You (I assume innocently) and others (some innocently, some maliciously) misconstrued this as a claim that he has a PhD degree 3. Despite Linkedin information being completely true and whole error being contained in your bad reading alone, you and others called Damore a liar. 4. Damore removed that true information to avoid further…

That is not my argument. My argument is that if in LinkedIn's education section you list a school and a degree -- which he did -- people take that to mean you have the degree. Ergo, he falsely claimed to have a degree he didn't. Could that be an accident? Might it just be incompetence? Maybe. But given that he also falsely claimed on his resume to be a chess master, I think the simple explanation is that he lied abou…

A person who had made an innocent error generally feels bad about the error and says so.

That's what he did! That is, that's what he did when someone finally got around to asking him about it in an environment where he trusted that he'd be given time to say his side in an unedited manner, which does not include any of the hit pieces you have linked. I believe it's mentioned in his interview with Jordan Peterson, which is the first public interview he gave.

Again you are blaming him for your own error.

This is not a personal attack; this is me pointing out facts of his behavior and reasonable inferences.

First, it is absolutely a personal attack. You're attacking his character and coding ability, which are not relevant to the topic. Ok, technically, you're passively suggesting it via speculative commentary but it amounts to the same thing.

Second, your inferences aren't reasonable, and they're unreasonable in exactly the manner that one would predict based on consumption of inflammatory and deliberately misleading propaganda aimed primarily at smearing Damore. For example, you inferred that he "didn't say anything or apologize," apparently relying on entirely on hostile bloggers to convey that message to you on his behalf. Remember that until this blew up, he was a private individual. He has no platform of his own and no way to offer any response that your chosen sources did not provide to you. So it is completely and utterly unreasonable to hold him accountable in such a way.

Furthermore, the fixation with LinkedIn is unreasonable. LinkedIn profiles are notoriously unreliable and many are neglected and incomplete, since many members are not actively seeking employment (yet retain membership for the social networking). If you had looked at Damore's whole profile rather than just the image, it was clear that not much effort had been put into it. This is consistent with his story that he had not been actively seeking employment when Google offered him an interview based on his Chess playing.

Which brings us to the chess issue. And yes, it seems that Damore stated on his resume that he's a FIDE Master, a term of art that it seems clear that he misused. Specifically he wrote "FIDE Master in Chess (>99th Percentile)". Other claims about chess-playing on his resume seem to check out as far as I can tell[0][1]. So yes, it's an interesting question why does he say that on his resume. I have not found an explanation, but can certainly think of others not mentioned in that stackexchange link, such as he misunderstood proper use of the term. Obviously a mistake, one that shouldn't be made, but nothing like the dishonesty you're accusing him of, especially when you give him no opportunity to explain himself.

Meanwhile, in this obsession with minor errors in an inexperienced young person's first resume or linkedin profile(errors that are easily cleared-up in a phone interview if you actually care), you are apparently giving a pass to someone who anonymously leaked a co-workers' fair and well-reasoned internal posting to outrage media to encourage hit pieces and start a witch hunt. ... which ultimately resulted in the employer being hit with a ton of negative press and a high-profile lawsuit.

So, no, your inferences are not remotely reasonable or appropriate by my estimation.

[0] http://www.uschess.org/results/2003/nya/?page=WINNERS&xsecti...

[1] I don't know what "Board 1 and Conference Champion" means, and "Rise of Nations" is a PC strategy game.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#970
post #821

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read what he wrote. It was (mostly) ugly but contained a lot of truth. Many of the media interpretations of what James Damore wrote were very biased, and effectively amounted to hit pieces. His use of terms like "Trait Neuroticism" were direct uses of psychological terms which just sound bad as everyday English. Evolutionary Biology also tends to have a "dismal" feeling to it, like Economics can. One can't take fie…

The topic matter was above the IQ of the vast majority of the protesters so we got a mob rule, peasant like response.

Did James Damore ever claim that women overall have lower IQs than men overall? [Citation Needed]
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