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The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

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Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#951

Post by ndriscoll »

sharperguy wrote: post #914
armchairhacker wrote: post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should be able to choose what's age-appropriate for your kids. Giving them access to e.g. "PG-13" media when they're 9 isn't the problem. Giving mature kids unrestricted access isn't a problem. The problem is culture: - Many parents don't think about restricting their kids' online exposure at all. And I think a larger issue than NSFW is the amount of time kids are spending: 5 hours according to this survey from 2…

Part of the issue with phones is that they are already controlled by the Google/Apple duopoly, and hence heavily optimized for constant distraction and addiction. These laws only cement that duopoly and provide fewer means to build more friendly platforms.

While I don't appreciate the implementation of "security" generally involving monopolization, I think it's important to note that you only need age verification for things that are irrelevant to children. In fact the entire point is to exclude children. So a non-Google/Apple device is still perfectly usable for them if (or even specifically because) it cannot pass age verification/attestation. Really the main concern should be use of attestation for banking/government stuff.

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#952

Post by horsawlarway »

armchairhacker wrote: post #289
horsawlarway wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand how this is any better. It's my job as a parent (and I have several kids...) to monitor the things they consume and talk with them about it. I don't want some blanket ban on content unless it's "age appropriate", because I don't approve that content being banned. (honestly - the idea of "age appropriate" is insulting in the first place) Fuck man, I can even legally give my kids alcohol - I don't se…

You should be able to choose what's age-appropriate for your kids. Giving them access to e.g. "PG-13" media when they're 9 isn't the problem. Giving mature kids unrestricted access isn't a problem. The problem is culture: - Many parents don't think about restricting their kids' online exposure at all. And I think a larger issue than NSFW is the amount of time kids are spending: 5 hours according to this survey from 2…

> Parents that want to restrict their kids struggle with ineffective parental controls: https://beasthacker.com/til/parental-controls-arent-for-pare.... Optional parental controls would fix this

I don't think they will, and this is because there's an inherent conflict of interest from these large tech companies about actually protecting my kids.

To be blunt: They don't give a fuck, they make money. They will pick money over kids EVERY time.

My current answer is that absolutely none of my children are allowed anywhere near these devices. Mandating shitty age verification laws isn't going to somehow make these companies act responsibly... it's just going to drive alternatives that are actually respectful out of business with additional legislative burden, while Google and Apple continue to act irresponsibly and unethically.

Further - it continues to enshrine the idea that parent's aren't responsible for their kids (see your first point)... The parents that are already neglecting this space will point to laws like this and go "look, the government is doing this for me!". Which is exactly wrong, and exactly what these companies want parents to think (again - the alternative, that parents actually engage and realize just how fucking morally bankrupt these bastards are, hurts bottom lines)

If you want change - remove the damn duopoly. Break them up. Force open markets. Force inter-compatibility.

This is not rocket science. This is basic political science we've known about for literally hundreds of years, the only difference is that our government in the US has been fucking useless because of regulatory capture (of which this will worsen) and the perceived national security & economic value of "owning" the tech stack used internationally.

"Security" when used in these contexts has very little to do with protecting you, or me, or our kids. It has a whole lot to do with protecting corporate bottom lines and governmental control.

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#953

Post by wongarsu »

girvo wrote: post #813
hiciu wrote: post #626

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> EU's planned system requires highly invasive age verification EUDI wallets are connected to your government issued ID. There is no "highly invasive age verification". We are literally sending a request to our government's server to sign, with their private key, message "this john smith born on 1970-01-01 is aged over 18" + jwt iat. There are 3 claims in there. They are hashed with different salts. This all is signe…

> It's really not much different than what a banking app would require. I can use my banking services through the web. Codifying the Google/Apple monopoly in law is gross.

Many banks have gone the way of requiring 2FA on an unrooted phone, but giving you a way out by also offering you 2FA via smartcard (using a smartcard reader and a bank-issued card). I suspect a similar thing could be done here, with the smartcard providing the trusted hardware/secure element?

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#954

Post by puchatek »

antitoxic wrote: post #390

I work at a European identity wallet system that uses a zero knowledge proof age identification system. It derives an age attribute such as "over 18" from a passport or ID, without disclosing any other information such as the date of birth. As long as you trust the government that gave out the ID, you can trust the attribute, and anonymously verify somebodies age. I think there are many pros and cons to be said about…

This is the way. It annoys me to no end when e.g. the German chancellor demands clearnames in social media. The real issue are bots and algorithmically enhanced reach. Proof of personhood in a privacy-preserving way is enough to fix this. But it should be mandatory for social media in the EU. You don't need to expose people to the doxxing mob to protect our democracy.

Tbh, when I read that "platforms face a choice between excluding lawful users and monitoring everyone." I don't have much understanding.

No gov. ID, no participation. It's not like you cannot go outside and talk to people anymore so let's not pretend that being on insta is some sort of universal human right and anybody barred from it is some sort of terrible tragedy.

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#955

Post by huflungdung »

maximus-decimus wrote: post #932
Kazik24 wrote: post #930

Shouldn't the verification be other way around? That is, you need to prove that you are a child. Then the site can present you more strictly filtered content. Parent can sign child's device on first boot, token stored in TPM so that it's hard to remove. It's basically the same type of enforcement on sites, as they need to verify and filter content for children, or just block them. Most of the internet users are adult…

So you want porn on every web site and have kids prove that they're kids by issuing their school card (because they won't have a real id yet) so the porn get hidden for them or so they get entirely banned from the system? Nobody's ever gonna show an id to get banned from a website.

[dead]

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#957

Post by budududuroiu »

antitoxic wrote: post #874
budududuroiu wrote: post #858

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As long as you trust the government that gave out the ID I'm a citizen of a European Union member, I trust my government to issue me an ID and use said ID in my interactions with the state, I do not trust my state with anything more than that.

That is exactly the trust I mean. You need to trust that country X gives out valid IDs. If you have sketchy company Y giving out IDs to everyone, you probably would not trust any attributes derived from that ID. If you trust that a country gives out valid IDs, you can trust the information derived from that ID. You do not really need to trust your government any more than that for this system to work.

Ok, I will do my homework on the proposal of the EU Identity Wallet but from my skimming on topics about it, it the tokens derived from my ID would be able to de-anonymise me online.

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#958

Post by shimman »

hunterpayne wrote: post #756
Forgeties79 wrote: post #610

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We'll try everything, it seems, other than holding parents accountable for what their children consume. It’s not a fair fight. These are multi-billion dollar companies with international reach and decades of investment and research weaponized against us to make us all little addicts. Additionally, it’s not fair or reasonable to ask parents to screen literally everything their kids do with a screen at all times any…

You are screwed but not for the reason you claim. Its because you don't take any accountability for yourself. There is/was no hope for someone who does that at any point in human history. Is it fair? Nope...but it also doesn't mean you have 0 autonomy.

So when people try to take accountability in a democratic government, by changing the law to what they want through democratic means that suddenly is having no accountability for one's self?

Good lord, Silicon Valley must have lead pipes.

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#959

Post by Forgeties79 »

redwall_hp wrote: post #549
tinfoilhatter wrote: post #479

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We should stop pretending these age-verification rollouts are about protecting children, because they aren't and never have been. Even if the world was full of responsible parents, there are still people and groups that want to establish a surveillance state. These systems are focused on monitoring and tracking online activity / limiting access to those who are willing to sacrifice their own personal sovereignty for…

It's funny, all the bible wankers screamed about "the mark of the beast" over things like RealID. Now we have fascists setting up surveillance and censorship tools to tie speech and movement to centralized ID...and they're lining up to lick boots. You should need to show ID and prove you're over 18 to enter a church. At least we know they're actually harmful to children.

“One day I’ll own that boot…”

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#960

Post by hellojesus »

antitoxic wrote: post #856
erremerre wrote: post #843

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You mean that system that requires either to use an original unmodified Android phone, or a iOS phone and it does not work in absolutely anything else?

No it is open-source and portable to any platform you want. We currently support iOS and Android through Play store and F-droid, but that is just because most of the market is there at the moment.

What about devices without a hardware-based trusted computing module? Am I now limited to what hardware I can run before I even get to my custom software?
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